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Psych watch: rumblings of discontent over CBT. Guardian feature on psych wars

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by sarah darwins, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    Lengthy article in the Guardian on questions being raised about the effectiveness of CBT (and the ubiquitousness of it). The article’s focus is on CBT for depression, though there seems to be a wider war going on in psychology in which the psychoanalysts are fighting back.

    There’s nothing specific to me/cfs in here, but there’s some good stuff about the rise and rise of CBT.

    More generally, I feel the very fact that these arguments rage constantly in psychology raises questions about the discipline’s claims to an empirical foundation.

    Also a quote from Trudie Chalder which will surprise no one.

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/...evenge-of-freud-cognitive-behavioural-therapy

    And a certain Trudie Chalder fights back ...

     
  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Hutan, Art Vandelay, Webdog and 4 others like this.
  3. Rick Sanchez

    Rick Sanchez

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  4. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    Ye, kind of like choosing between two blokes, who do you want to run off with your wife?
     
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  5. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Or may derive from being a quack, and mistreating patients.
     
  6. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Asking me if I'd prefer psychoanalysis to CBT would be like asking me if I'd prefer to be hit by a train vs. a car.
     
  7. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    “People who say CBT is superficial have just missed the point,” said Trudie Chalder, professor of cognitive behavioural psychotherapy at the King’s College Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience in London, who argues that no single therapy is best for all maladies. “Yes, you’re targeting people’s beliefs, but you’re not just targeting easily accessible beliefs. It’s not just ‘Oh, that person looked at me peculiarly, so they must not like me’; it’s beliefs like ‘I’m an unlovable person’, which may derive from early experience. The past is very much taken into account.”

    What Dr Chalder seems not to realise is how ridiculous what she says seems to anyone who knows anything about evidence. She talks the way physiotherapists used to talk before they realised they needed to have some reason for what they were saying. How does she know the ideas may derive from early experience and more importantly how does she know how this should be 'taken into account'. It sounds like a fortune teller making it up as they go along. It seems extraordinary that anyone should think they can impose this on people in a vulnerable position. And it seems anyone can do the same if the pay for a distance learning course at King's.
     
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  8. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    So basically the message is that people with depression are depressed because they hate themselves. No wonder there is a problem of stigma in this area.

    It seems that every generation of psychiatrists and psychologists fight against the stigma created by the previous generation while promoting their own stigmatizing ideas.

    "No of course schizophrenia has nothing to do with refrigerator mothers. Such a stigmatizing idea. People with mental health issues deserve respect. Except those nasty CFS patients and other somatizers."
     
  9. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    Yes also they lose their ability and right to judge facial expressions and body language of people they have encountered and this must only be done for them by the state....

     
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  10. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    She probably gets that from the DSM where all sorts of things like this is written down as evidence.
     
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  11. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member

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    Well if it's in the book it must be true.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. cmt12

    cmt12 Senior Member

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    The problem of ME/CFS is that anyone who focuses in on it long enough eventually gets to a point where they are deceived into filling in the gaps through intellectualization. Every doctor in this field, not just the psychologists, has based their understanding on confirmation bias while fully believing it is based on reason. It's just more ironic with the psychologists.
     
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  13. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    Onward psychotherapists marching as to war
    With the cross of DSM dragging on the floor

    Onward then, ye patients, join our happy throng
    Blend with our delusions and your recovery will come on
     
  14. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Senior Member

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    I was talking to a friend who is a social worker about how CBT is inappropriately recommended for ME/CFS. She commiserated and said that "the shrinks prescribe CBT for my clients for any illness or condition when they don't know what else to do. It doesn't work."
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  15. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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  16. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    u.s.a.
    I totally get where you guys are coming from and in years past have probably posted similar things. But one thing I like about CBT is to use it to not care as much about what people like Chalder are doing....if a person (like me) sometimes lets other's beliefs and actions get under her skin....its helpful to be reminded that those people don't matter.....sort of like when George on Seinfeld yelled "serenity now" lol......for me CBT doesn't have to mean I am having to accept I am wrong in my perceptions of other's intents etc but rather to find ways of letting go about how I feel about my perceptions and feelings of their judgements

    They do use mindfulness and CBT to help with all sorts of illnesses now....heart disease to cancer...I understand why its hard for CFS/Me folks to take the parts of it that might be helpful since its all the field has offered us instead of it being an adjunct to other physical medical treatment

    The more things I have tried for my health tho, that are "real" medicines etc....well I have come full circle almost and am starting to think the only things that could save me, a little even, are good food and love....and if those don't work I am SOL with cards i was dealt (just because I have poor tolerance issues with chemicals)

    David Burns wrote a lot of CBT books starting in 80s and for the mental health aspect of life research did find his first book was more useful than antidepressants. Our thoughts may not make ME or cancer go away but they might at least help us be more relaxed or not.

    Its tricky, because it puts us in position of wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater....but I like to utilize CBT to let go of anger about injustice of our position....not because I don't believe there are real physical explanations for my disability. I did go through a couple years, when I got really involved on this forum around xmrv time and when I saw Cheney in 08 where I abhored some natural more cognitive approaches to dealing with parts of my health....out of spite probably to how it was historically inappropriately pushed as first line of defense for cfs/me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  17. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

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    There's a neatness in that, it has to be said; you use CBT to let go of the anger brought about by the unjust use of CBT. I suppose when the need is bad enough "whatever helps" is a good enough principle to go by.
     
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  18. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    hey I am desperate like everyone else....will even pray once in the while and talk to spirits since we got nothin' much else goin' on ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I totally get where you are coming from too xrayspex. I guess my view would be that what you find valuable might be more valuable if it was not called something silly like CBT.

    What I worry about is that forty years ago this sort of help was provided by doctors who very often realised that all they could hope to do was to pass on some benefit from experience of seeing people with similar problems before. Doctors have an advantage over therapists in that they do not have to feel that their existence is entirely justified by treatment. I spent most of my life just trying to explain - and very often explaining how little we knew but that for other people in the same situation things often turned out not too bad (when that was the case). But the physiotherapists could only justify themselves by believing they could treat people. Now helpful advice has been handed over to people called therapists and they feel they have to know what they are doing and believe in it. That seems to me to have an altogether bad influence on the process. Bogus theories get involved. Hurtful things are said - and so on. Sure, it happened before, but now it is becoming entrenched.
     
  20. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    I think the main problem with CBT is its theoretical frame. And I'm not talking only of CFS/CBT. The belief that mental illness are caused by unhelpful thoughts and maladaptive behaviors and can be cured by fixing them is just simplistic. Mental illnesses are a complex result of multifactorial causes. And I also think this model mixes up causes and consequences.

    That being said, there are really helpful psychotherapeutic tools (including CBT techniques) that can help cope with illness (be it "organic" or "mental"). But that's what they are: coping tools, no more no less. And in some cases, alleviating the stress caused by mental symptoms can be curative.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016

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