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Protocol around S-Acetyl Glutathione

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by jimmy86, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. jimmy86

    jimmy86

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    Hi!
    The German supplier of S-Acetyl Glutathione (SAG) advertises a protocol center high dose SAG and vitamins that I would like to share with you and ask you for your thoughts.

    First month:

    SAG
    1.2 g
    Vitamin B12
    10.000 mcg
    Vitamin D3
    20.000 IU
    Vitamin C
    2g
    Vitamin A
    10.000 IU
    Zinc
    50 mg
    Magnesium
    500 mg
    Calcium
    500 mg
    Quercetin
    1000 mg
    Natron
    3 daily

    2nd and 3rd month:


    SAG
    800 mg

    Vitamin B12
    10.000 mcg

    Vitamin D3
    20.000 IU

    Vitamin C
    2g

    Vitamin A
    10.000 IU

    Zinc
    50 mg

    Magnesium
    500 mg

    Calcium
    500 mg

    Quercetin
    1000 mg

    Natron
    3 daily


    next 4 months:

    SAG
    200 - 300 mg
    Vitamin B12
    5.000 mcg
    Vitamin D3
    20.000 IU
    Vitamin C
    1g
    Vitamin A
    10.000 IU
    Zinc
    25 mg
    Magnesium
    250 mg
    Calcium
    250 mg
    Quercetin
    1000 mg
    Natron
    1 daily


    I think I am going to start it as soon as I have all ingredients. Any thoughts on that, especially from the methylation experts?

    Jimmy
    laozi likes this.
  2. jimmy86

    jimmy86

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    I have started the protocol and will let you know what's going to happen.
    roxie60 likes this.
  3. Mogwai

    Mogwai

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    All the best, jimmy. Looks expensive...

    Where are you buying the SAG from?
  4. jimmy86

    jimmy86

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    I buy it from NATURE DOC.
    To give you a quick update, I am feeling still quite good. Brain fog is better, almost no heart problems anymore and I can stand for a longer time. It does not (so far) help against muscle problems, like pain and soar muscles. I sometimes even do thinks without thinking about the consequences, because I feel I do not crash. In fact I have only crashed mildly once in two weeks, but have been on a high activity level (work 9-5). Also today I do not feel so well because I have run out of SAG, new SAG will delivered on monday, though. I think it worth a try. But remember, I have let checked my levels before and the reduced glutathione was low.
  5. Mogwai

    Mogwai

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    Sounds very promising for you, jimmy!

    I will check out my methylation pathways before investing in SAG first.

    Thanks.
  6. laozi

    laozi

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    Hi Jimmy!

    I found this EXTREMELY interesting!!

    I've bought some SAG and was thinking of starting this regimen (more or less)!

    However, I do have some questions... Do you know contact info for the people who designed this regimen? Where did you hear about it?

    How are your results so far? :)
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laozi,

    Glutathione can be very dangerous. I have no idea if the form matters. It can put a person into methyltrap in a day and from there inflammation increases, folate deficiency symptoms increase and after a few days MeCbl deficiency symptoms become evident. Neurological damage can become apparent in 6 weeks. Here is what I wrote up a couple of years following my own trial by glutathione. I have not fully recovered from the neurological damage it caused, and this is getting to be 5 years post.

    Folate deficiency symptoms, otherwise known as "Glutathione detox"

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation, IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body,

    Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.

    HOW TO INDUCE SUBACUTE COMBINED DEGENERATION and enlarged MCV in humans in 3 months or less.

    Causing SCD and macrocytic anemia was NEVER our intention, our intention was to induce health benefits from glutathione or precursors as claimed these days amongst certain practitioners. This is just how it turned out, 180 degrees from what we expected.
    Individual results will vary but in an N=10 trial, 100% of subjects had the results to varying degrees, perhaps as they used several different precursor combos or infusions.

    The subjects were all successful with adb12, mb12 and Metafolin. Those not in this group that had never relieved the deficiency symptoms claimed pain relief from the glutathione as their nerves were damaged further into numbness.

    Method 1 - feed subjects 1 gram of l-glutamine and 600mg of time release NAC twice a day for duration (or frequent glutathione infusions, or NAC or whey in some). In 3 hours after first dose most of available b12 in the body will be flushed out in the urine. Then within the next few hours methylfolate is expelled from the cells via the "methyl trap". Widespread body, muscle and joint, inflammation and pain start within hours and gets worse by the day. This is responsive to NSAIDS generally.

    Folate deficiency symptoms appear the first day, mb12 deficiency symptoms in several days and adb12 deficiency symptoms - 3 months or so.

    Over the next days and weeks, CPR heads for the roof. Hypersensitivity of all sorts starts, MCS, hyper-immune response, hypersensitivity in nerves, etc. In 3 days angular cheilitis starts up in those who are prone to it. In 2 more days IBS starts. At about the same time acne type lesions start up on scalp and face and often infected follicles in other body areas. Oral lesions usually follow. By six weeks centrally mediated numbness and pain of feet and legs, hands, arms, shoulders etc are all spreading and worsening.

    Dr Jeckyl leaves the house and is replaced with Mr Hyde for the duration. Sleep disorders increase. In 3 months macrocytosis is obvious, MCV > 100. MS will be dramatically worsened. If the person is also extremely low on l-carnitine and/or adb12 Parkinson's like symptoms may worsen explosively. Then if l-carnitine is given the subject may go absolutely nuts and a walkthrough of the extreme FFF characteristics of the limbic system will be demonstrated in usually the same order each time, dependent upon rising or falling l-carnitine level.

    Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days. On day 3 need for potassium will increase by 2000-3000mg to avoid dramatic sudden onset of Hypokalemia symptoms when backlogged healing starts up. Also on day 3 Metafolin dosage needs increase.

    In about a month inflammation will be largely gone if all cofactors are present that are needed, CRP <=1.0, multitudes of pains will be fading. Only the remyelination and MCV take about 9 months to correct to the extent that they can but trail on for years as it is an ongoing equilibrium that is either getting better or worse.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  8. laozi

    laozi

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    Hi Freddd!

    Where was this trial done?

    Are you saying that glutathione is bad period? It is the body's chief antioxidant and produced naturally?
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Watch Ben Lynch's latest video (titled something like Breakthrough's 2013 in my signature links). He says that too much glutathione causes feedback inhibition, and you also need NAD with it to make sure it gets converted to reduced glutathione. The above protocol has no NAD or B3.

    As folate is missing, the B12 won't be able to make methyl groups and thus make glutathione. The extremely high doses of the various vitamins are a concern.

    In general, I give this a big thumbs down.

    It's best to take precursors to methylation to get the body to make it's own glutathione, vs taking it directly.
    helen1 likes this.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laozi,

    Are you saying that glutathione is bad period?

    No. I'm saying that at the various doses and intervals and forms used it caused damage. As it is produced naturally, at natural amounts it is clearly needed. Above a certain unknown level of glutathione it has the potential to cause damage, sometimes severe damage. One researcher said to me via phone "I don't see any way glutathione can be safely used". What it all means I don't know. I advise caution.

    When people are not having methylation startup and they are taking glutathione, often stopping the glutathione can then allow methylation startup. There are a lot of conditional words in that like "often " and "can ... allow". These reflect uncertainty.

    Where was this trial done?

    This trial was done in multiple places in the world coming up on 6 years ago I believe. I was in Utah, another man was in Scotland. Somebody else was in New Mexico. The other 7 people were elsewhere. None of us were ever in the same location.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  11. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Freddd said:
    Note: I don't believe this was a formal trial. Perhaps @Freddd can supply details about the diagnostic criteria of the cohort and their before and after lab results.

    Sushi
    Valentijn likes this.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    This is the replay to your other similar post at http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/does-nac-really-cause-damage.25047/page-2
    Hi Sushi,

    It would help with clarity if, when you referred to "trials" you made it clear that you have been working with an informal groups, together trying a protocol--not formal trials set up by researchers and/or doctors

    investigators initially enroll volunteers and/or patients into small pilot studies
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_trial

    This and a dozen and a half other trials are my original work. I choose items to research that would lead to my healing. It would seem very stupid to me to choose items for study that might produce interesting microscopic test results, require millions of dollars and not come up with a result useful for healing me and incidentally, maybe another millions and millions more in the USA. So I choose things that were either discernible directly, such as the symptoms patterns of going out of and then back into and then out of methyltrap.

    I did urine colorimetry, thousands of trials by injection and/or sublingual or oral of b12 from 1-100mg, with folic acid, l-methylfolate and glutathione as I had no other way I could afford to determine how much b12 was making it into the urine from the blood. I choose things that didn't require instruments I didn't have or couldn't afford. As HEALING was the number one criteria, it came down to how people's symptoms went. We learned how to turn methyltrap on and off. That has lots of symptoms

    And I could continue to list all sorts of definitions for "trials' from "time trials" "experimental trials" and so on. It doesn't take a doctor to run a trial. A typical high school swimming coach runs time trials all the time. I actually had two courses in college, experimental design 1 and experimental design 2.

    However, I have been in the business of collecting data and analyzing it since the late 70s. and collaborated in writing Group Health Care conference presentations. Now these were more likely to have a title such as THE EFFECTS OF PROVIDER COMPENSATION METHODS ON PRACTICE PATTERNS. Those on fraud detection methods were delivered behind locked doors and not distributed in written form or recorded. They were considered trade secrets.

    I organized this trial, a small pilot study, recruited participants, developed the protocol in cooperation with others so inclined, and performed it.

    supplying before and after lab results....

    Some trials use lab work, some don't. It certainly isn't a requirement unless you are looking for certain specific small things that can only be detected by lab test. In the group health care field we use secondary measures such as increased or decreased utilization of drugs, increased or decreased provider services, increased or decreased symptoms, changing symptoms, patterns of symptoms, rate of change of symptoms, rate of change of patterns of treatments, predictability, repeatability. We were looking for naked eye results. We were looking for the forest itself, not for the pine bark beetle in drought strained trees.

    Lab results seem critical when discussing the outcome of "trials."

    Limiting observation to lab tests in the entire b12/folate disaster got us 3 pseudo vitamins that leaves millions of us with undiagnosable b12 and folate deficiencies. NOBODY ever looked to see if people were actually getting well. They made sure that out blood cells were below 100 and cobalamin serum level >300pg/ml instead of "DID WE HEAL". Depending upon lab work only, threw the baby out and kept the bath water.

    It was all these assumptions about research that enabled b12 and folate researchers to be 100% CORRECT AT THE MICROSCOPIC LEVEL and leaves 100,000,000 of us in the USA with mysterious deficiency diseases, including you and me and everybody here. The only reason I had to do this is that the research community completely fell down on the job.

    You have not given cohort definitions (are these patients diagnosed by the Canadian criteria for ME and, if not, what are they diagnosed with and how?)

    100% of the cohort were those with at least 6 months of healing with MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-methylfolate. They had been sick and disabled and were at the time of the trial anywhere between 50 and 90% recovered of from their CFS/FMS, diagnosed in the USA or UK by their own doctors. I'm not sure that when we started planning this 6 years ago that the Canadian ME definition even existed yet. In any case nobody from Canada participated.


    generally accepted medical knowledge


    So, "generally accepted medical knowledge" has failed me for the past 65 years. If it were correct these diseases would be as rare they were in 1950. We are all here in spite of or because of " generally accepted medical knowledge". Many of us are here because folic acid and/or CyCbl/HyCbl made us sick or at least were not able to prevent b12 deficiency or folate deficiency. Whatever the effective treatment turns out to be for CFS/FMS it is going to be against "generally accepted medical knowledge". Otherwise we would already have the answer.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    @Freddd

    My point was not to debate the effectiveness of generally accepted medical knowledge, just to identify theories as, well, theories--so as to be clear.

    And also not to question the results of your trials, just to clarify their nature, so that readers do not mistake them for other types of trials. I also don't debate the value of anecdotal evidence--sometimes that is all we have. We just need to identify it as such.

    Sushi
    leela and Valentijn like this.
  14. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

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    I have been reading the other NAC thread not having seen this one until this morning (ie morning in UK). I was worried as I find the science difficult but if there is any significant risk to a supplement then I would not risk taking it.

    After a supplement since April that was using a low dose of cysteine and low dose of glutathione I began (2 weeks ago) to take a much higher dose of NAC on someone's recommendation (not on this forum), although I was only taking one capsule of 600mg which is a much lower dose than in Fredd's trial. It may be a complete coincidence, but I seem to have suddenly gone from someone who rarely had muscle pain to one who now has it quite badly after doing quite gentle exercise.

    As I am trying other approaches (to do with the thyroid and adrenals), I did not associate it with the NAC until I read this article, but I for one am not going to take any chances and going to stop it for now, and see how I do.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mermaid,

    It's important to have another view on so many of these things since it has all been ignored the last 50 years. The reasoning behind want to raise glutathione looked pretty good to me too. However, it didn't work out the way it's proponents suggest for and many others. It's especially obviously destructive if one has had substantial healing with the active b12 protocol it has some to undo very obviously.
    mermaid likes this.
  16. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I think maybe this is happening to me over the past few months as well. I've been using a transdermal gluathione cream for about a year.

    In the past year, my MCV has gone up from 89 to 98. I was looking for possible reasons why and I stumbled onto these threads.

    I've also noticed the suggestion that hypothyroidism may be responsible for an increased MCV so I will check that out as well on my next labs.

    I don't have a lot of the symptoms on @Freddd 's list though. No angular chelitis, no acne/sores etc but I do have a lot more symptoms of tight muscles, inflammation and depression.

    The glutathione is expensive though so I'm more than happy to do a trial off of it. My concern is what to do about methylfolate. I can take about 1600 mg/day fine but any more than that and I get terrible anxiety. 3.25 of Deplin put me over the edge in about 3 days. So do I just go slower with the methylfolate?

    I can tolerate quite a bit of mB12. I'm currently taking 5 mg of the ET B12 Infusion but have taken up to 10 mg in the past.

    Rich VanK suggested that my inability to tolerate Deplin was perhaps from overdriving my methylation cycle and advised me to back down and/or consider hydroxy. I understand that is not the perspective of Freddd, but I wonder how I make sure that is not in fact what is happening?

    I also wonder about potassium. I already take 20 mEQ of potassium for other reasons. So will I need to supplement even more? This is more potassium that people typically get from my reading. Is it enough to avoid the rapid potassium deficiency?

    Thanks, Ema
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ema,

    You appear to have the MeCbl deficiency symptoms present before methyltrap sets in and everything changes to folate deficiency. The neurological changes will likely happen. You likely need both MeCbl and AdoCbl (Enzymatic Therapy, Anabol Dibencoplex), 1000mcg of Enzy and 1/4 cap of the Dibencoplex each for 45-120 minutes under a lip. I suspect the Deplin "problem" is cause by the selective flushing of MeCbl and throwing the neurological balance way off.. High MCV is primarily caused by low folate and/or low B12. It is what I predicted would be an indicator of glutathione damage.

    B1, B2 and B3 can overdrive the need for potassium. A low dose b-complex without folic acid, folinic acid or CyCbl is needed.

    My best advice to titrate all over again. Start with the basics, the basic fats, the two forms of b12 and Metafolin. Then after the potassium and folate are stable, then to cautiously microtitrate LCF. Other B-complex items can be added and separately titrated, slowly and with caution. Other vitamins are made more effective by the active b12 and active folate and therefore less predictable until mapped.

    It can take a while for the glutathione to get out of your system so it can take a while for MeCbl to get back into the brain. It does brighten the perceptions in all sorts of ways. Don't jump to conclusions. Depending upon your individual chemistries it could be ATP startup and/or methylation startup so don't jump to conclusions. If you are taking carnitine, stop that too for the time being. Also, CoQ10 should be stopped in advance as well. If you have any doubts about specific items, lets go over your supplements.
  18. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @Ema @Freddd
    I had high MCV on a recent test - my doc has prescribed b12 injections - don't think they are methylation experts so whether I do it or not????
  19. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Thanks @Freddd!

    I carried on taking the ET mb12 at 5000 mcg and the SN adB12 sublingually while taking the glutathione. I did stop the additional folate (I was taking 1600 mcg/day) though there is 400 mcg of methylfolate in my B complex (Pure Encapsulations B-Complex Plus). http://www.pureencapsulations.com/b-complex-plus.html

    So would you titrate from the point where I am or would you take everything lower again? Do you think I need more mB12 than 5000 mg?

    FWIW, I never felt much of any start up or detox even when I started these supps at the very beginning. The only reaction I got was when I started the Deplin which provoked anxiety in doses over about 2000 mcg/day.

    I'm not currently taking any LCF or Co-Q-10.

    I am taking a variety of other supplements which I will list here:

    Fish oil, 4-6 g /day
    Inosine
    Vit D, 2000 IU
    Vit K2, MK4, 30 mg
    Vit A, 10000 IU
    Alpha Lipoic Acid, 600 mg
    Zinc, 40 mg
    Multi Mineral Supp
    Iron, 18 mg
    Licorice, 500 mg x2
    Rhodiola, 240 mg x2
    Vitex, x2
    KDur, 20-40 mEQ
    Grapefruit Seed Extract, 250 mg x3
    Niacinamide 1000 mg x2 (for Lyme)
    L-Theanine, 200 mg x2
    Probiotics

    Meds are Valcyte, Valtrex, cidofovir, doxy, azith, and Hizentra.

    I think the only potentially problematic one is probably the niacinamide. I only started this in the last month though on the advice of my LLMD as it has antibacterial effects at high doses. So in that respect, I am using it more as a med than as a supp.

    Thanks again for your help!
  20. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I think B12 is really important myself. So I would do it, but I would make sure it is methyl B12 that they are using and that they take all the appropriate precautions to keep it from breaking down in the light. If it is cyano or hydroxy B12, I would skip the injections and just take the sublinguals.

    The sublinguals are cheap and they work just as well as the injections provided you get the good brand (Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion).

    Do you take a good B complex as well?

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