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ProHealth: Plague: An interview with Judy Mikovits

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Firestormm, Jun 1, 2014.

  1. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    None of the information, Mikovits or the WPI uploaded to the Genbank is anything other than xmrv, no hgrv unless Mikovits has other strands and sequnces that were not posted.:bang-head:

    The NIH blood working group comprised of preeminent scientists/researchers charged with the protection of the blood supply, could not find any infectious agent/pathogen that would cause alarm to the nation’s blood supply. Mikovits couldn't find xmrv in her own group. The word plague, is unfortunately scare tactics based on pure fiction than non-fiction and certainly not scientific.:rolleyes:

    From a Scientific viewpoint, to make statements that xmrv/hgrv or any other retroviral variant is causing or is associated with ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Lyme, GWI, A Typical MS or Autism is totally outrageous as there is absolutely no scientific evidence to prove either causation or association and only provides false hope to a community that needs hope at this time!

    L@@k, Researchers are still searching for biomarkers for the ME/CFS patient community so it is impossible to make absolute statements concerning disease causality without the evidence to back it up. It discredits the scientific process. Someone’s gut feeling or intuition just doesn’t make it in the field of science. Aligning oneself with an anti-vaxer, Age of Autism, only brings further scientific derision on an already marginalized ME/CFS community by the medical and scientific profession. This is not woo woo science where one can pull things out of thin air and make pronouncements and statements as though they are scienctifically based on some proof from some esoteric evidence. We acccused the Weasely faction in doing such but in no way and in no manner should any reputable scientist be making any statements that are not first founded and established after rigorous scientific investigation and methodology that has been replicated by others. The XMRV article in Science was retracted for that and other reasons based on evidence given to the editors.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-03/news/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011_1_whittemore-peterson-institute-xmrv-judy-mikovits

    Statements made concerning Silverman are fallacious. If Mikovits found a different strain, then post up on GenBank. The only strains I see are xmrv strains.

    @Ernie
    The research cites have already been discussed to some extent in this thread if some one wishes to slog through it.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ratory-and-wild-mice.18402/page-3#post-282212

    Eco
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
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  2. RustyJ

    RustyJ Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'

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    If lab workers have antibodies, they have the virus. And it is no longer contamination.
    People are entitled to discuss what they wish as long as they are not rude or condescending or intimidatory or trolling.

    Most of this discussion, as I read it, is about whether XMRV exists as a pathogen, not whether it is a causal agent, and as such is still certainly on the table.

    Not all posters here are researchers, or even fully cognizant, so discussion of issues of interest helps understanding, no matter how often it needs to be explained.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
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  3. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    @RustyJ thanks for taking the time to read and provide a helpful response.

    I apologise to others reading this that I'm not as cognissant on this study as others and do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise here.

    I am in fact a researcher but not in the medical/sciencefield :) and have only recently come across the XMRV study.My major concern was regarding the "creation of new retroviruses undetectable as a result of the mouse research during the XMRV study"
    A. Did that happen (creation of new retroviruses by that particular study)?
    B. Does that mean lab people and Mikovits are able to spread those enteroviruses?
    C. Is this happening in scientific mouse research everywhere?
    D. We don't know
    Even though I'm a researcher immunity and antibodies aren't my specialities :)

    Thankyou kindly for taking the time to respond to a scientific num num. :)
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Actually, antibodies are not evidence of active or even dormant infection. They can indicate a past infection. Vaccines also cause the body to produce antibodies without the person having been infected at all (not that that is likely to apply in this case!).

    Antibodies may indicate active or dormant infection, but not necessarily.
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  5. RustyJ

    RustyJ Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'

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    I think the point of the argument was: is the virus evident in humans, not whether it is dormant or active, or even pathogenic. a virus, once contracted, remains in the body, whether it is dormant or active, ergo you have the virus.
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  6. RustyJ

    RustyJ Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'

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    Sorry Lillybelle, I am not a researcher, but one of those who needs to further their understanding. I can't add much to your own knowledge, other than to say that the whole XMRV saga was extraordinary, and well worth further discussion.
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  7. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    Of course, I can only base my comments about the new book from what Judy Mikovits said in the interview. I am wondering if Dr. Mikovits will take any responsibility of what happened at the WPI and the contamination issue which she seems to be throwing Silverman under the bus for and blaming her 'adversariess' for what happened.

    I clearly remember Dr Mikovits stating that there is a very strong link between XMRV and ME/CFS due to finding 67 out of 101 patient samples positive. The press and patients turned this link or correlation into cause and I don't remember Dr Mikovits ever strongly saying they had it wrong. It wasn't her 'adversaries' saying 'cause' it was the press and patients. I think she should at least recognize that it wasn't just her enemies because I remember lots of talk on PR regarding XMRV as the cause and this was coming from her supporters.

    I also am quite aware that some have chosen to vilify the WPI for selling a bogus test to patients but didn't Dr Mikovits tell patients that if they had a negative test they should repeat it because it will eventually turn positive. I think many decided to get the test based on her statements regarding XMRV and the tests. So really why is only the WPI to be blamed when Dr Mikovits was supporting the test in the beginning.

    It all ended so badly and patients still fight about it. I guess in the end there was a positive aspect. If it wasn't for both the Whittemores and Dr Mikovits there wouldn't have been the attention on ME/CFS that there was and is now. I say both because the Whittemores hired Dr Mikovits which enabled her to do the research. They sank millions of dollars into the WPI and they also let Dr Mikovits take over the research and have the main focus on XMRV for over two years. Would she have been able to do the research if it wasn't for the WPI? If Lipkin can't get funding for his microbiome study, would Dr Mikovits ever have gotten funding without the backing from the WPI -- very unlikely.

    I think both the Whittemores and Dr Mikovits made some huge mistakes in this whole saga. Neither side is blameless in how it all played out and I do hope Dr Mikovits recognizes that in her book or she won't seem credible.
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  8. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I do remember seeing a video of Dr. Mikovits saying very early on that the correlation they found did not show causation.

    Since Silverman acknowledged the contamination happened in his lab, one of the reasons he wanted to have his name taken off the WPI studies, I don't see that as "throwing Silverman under the bus."

    And comparing what the Whittemores may have experienced with the fact they had Dr. Mikovits arrested and thrown in jail...just doesn't compare.
  9. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    When are the Whittemore's going to take responsibility for "their" bogus test sold from "their" for-profit clinical lab VIPdx which was owned by the Whittemore's and Lombardi. Of which Lombardi was in charge of the lab and the testing. And by the way "The Whittemore's" would have approved for the sale . Why don't you ask Lombardi what testing methods he used (perhaps he could provide some data on that) and were approved of by his employers. Silverman sequenced the contamination that came from his lab. Alter/Lo also found variants. Oh and here's current information on what the FDA has to say about the use of animal cells in humans:

    "This document is intended to provide guidance on nonhuman primate xenotransplantation. Xenotransplantation is defined for the purpose of this document as the use of live cells, tissues, or organs from a nonhuman animal source transplanted or implanted into a human, or used for ex vivo contact with human body fluids, cells, tissues, or organs that are subsequently given to a human recipient. For the purpose of this document, xenografts include live cells, tissues or organs from a nonhuman animal source used for xenotransplantation. This document provides guidance to industry concerning: (1) the potential public health risks posed by nonhuman primate xenografts."

    "While this guidance addresses the issue of nonhuman primate xenotransplantation, the agency is aware that other species of animals have been used and are proposed as future sources of xenografts and may pose infectious disease risks."

    (Xenotransplantation raises a major public health dilemma." Viruses that are not pathogenic in their natural host reservoirs may, in some cases, be highly pathogenic when transmitted to a new host species. Several zoonotic viruses have produced significant outbreaks when introduced into human hosts)

    Evidence suggests that transmission of certain infectious agents from nonhuman primates to humans can have serious public health consequences.

    RECOMMENDATIONS
    FDA has reviewed the currently available scientific information and has considered the public comments submitted to the Docket No. 96M-0311 and expressed at recent PHS-sponsored public workshops on xenotransplantation regarding the use of nonhuman primate xenotransplantation. Based on this review, and following consultation with the NIH, CDC, HRSA, and the DHHS Working Group on Xenotransplantation, the FDA has concluded that:

    1. the use of nonhuman primate xenografts in humans raises substantial public health safety concerns within the scientific community and among the general public;
    2. current scientific data indicates that human subjects, including individual xenotransplant recipients, their close contacts, and the public at large, would be exposed to significant infectious disease risk by the use of nonhuman primate xenografts; and that
    3. further scientific research and evaluation is needed in order to obtain sufficient information to adequately assess and potentially to reduce the risks posed by nonhuman primate xenotransplantation
    In light of these considerations, the FDA has determined the following concerning the use of nonhuman primate xenografts in FDA-regulated products intended for human use:

    1. an appropriate federal xenotransplantation advisory committee, such as a Secretary's Advisory Committee on Xenotransplantation (SACX) currently under development within the DHHS, should address novel protocols and issues raised by the use of nonhuman primate xenografts, conduct discussions, including public discussions as appropriate, and make recommendations on the questions of whether and under what conditions the use of nonhuman primate xenografts would be appropriate in the United States.
    2. clinical protocols proposing the use of nonhuman primate xenografts should not be submitted to the FDA until sufficient scientific information exists addressing the risks posed by nonhuman primate xenotransplants. Consistent with FDA Investigational New Drug (IND) regulations [21 CFR 312.42(b)(1)(iv)], any protocol submission that does not adequately address these risks is subject to clinical hold (i.e., the clinical trial may not proceed) due to insufficient information to assess the risks and/or due to unreasonable risk.
    3. at the current time, FDA believes there is not sufficient information to assess the risks posed by nonhuman primate xenotransplantation. FDA believes that it will be necessary for there to be public discussion before these issues can be adequately addressed.
    And there's more on the use of animal cells in Gene therapy, Stem cell, and cancer research/treaments here:

    1. http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodva...n/guidances/xenotransplantation/ucm074730.htm
    For year 2013 to 2014 600 million dollars was given by private sources for research into gene therapy alone which uses gammaretroviral vectors as the delivery system. Recipients receiving any animal parts, tissue, or cells are monitored for life for a potential retrovirus that could recombine through the lab process, or even once put inside the body. Their close contacts are deferred from donating blood as well. Now why would that be?
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  10. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I think you have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did say that Dr Mikovits stated link or correlation not causation but at the time she wasn't discounting all the talk re: causation and really I was trying to say it wasn't just her 'adversaries' (from interview) that were discussing causation as she claimed in the interview.

    I think XMRV contamination was around before Silverman so maybe it's not entirely his fault. It's entirely conceivable that his samples got contaminated due to contamination in another lab that ended up in his lab. I don't know. Also, if it is true that the contamination occurred in Silverman's lab it doesn't mean Silverman himself contaminated the samples. Who knows how many people were working with them. It just seems to me that using his name repeatedly puts the blame squarely on him. A theme seems to be it's everybody elses fault (well at least from the interview) but she played a big part in all of this and made some obvious mistakes that I hope she addresses in the book.

    I am not comparing the sides, I was simply stating that both sides made mistakes and I do hope that the book is not a slagfest because if it is it may not be taken seriously. I would like to read a fair account of where the Whittemores screwed up including the arrest but also a fair assessment of how she as a researcher might have done things differently. That would garner a lot of respect. Anyways, all of this is just my opinion and the last thing I want to do is start yet more arguments. The only people who truly know what went down are those directly involved. All the rest of us can do is speculate which is exactly what I have done.
  11. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    Here's more from the FDA Guidelines:

    Risks Associated with Nonhuman Primate Xenotransplantation

    Viruses that are not pathogenic in their natural host reservoirs may, in some cases, be highly pathogenic when transmitted to a new host species.

    Consequently, the recipient of a xenotransplant is potentially at risk for infection with infectious agents already known to be transmissible from animals to humans as well as with infectious agents which may become transmissible only through xenotransplantation and which may not be readily identified with current diagnostic tools. Infected xenograft recipients could then potentially transmit these infectious agents to their contacts and subsequently to the public at large. In this regard, infectious agents which result in persistent latent infections which may remain dormant for long periods before causing clinically identifiable disease are of particular concern.

    Nonhuman primates harbor several known infectious agents which are potential human pathogens and which can produce clinically latent infections and/or persistent infections. These agents include a variety of retroviruses (e.g., Simian Immunodeficiency Virus [SIV], Simian Foamy Viruses [SFV], Simian T-Lymphotropic Viruses [STLV], Baboon Endogenous Retrovirus, and/or Simian Type D Retroviruses) and a variety of herpes viruses (e.g., herpesvirus papio, baboon cytomegalovirus [CMV], and SA-8). These agents are often found at high rates in nonhuman primate colonies. Most nonhuman primates harbor SFV and several studies have demonstrated that SFV from nonhuman primates can persistently infect humans occupationally exposed to these animals. (2,3,4) Human cells infected with SFV exhibit cytopathic effects; whether or not SFV can cause disease in humans and/or can be subsequently transmitted among humans is currently unknown. Cercopithecine herpesvirus 1 (or B virus) transmitted from macaques to humans can result in the rapid onset of encephalitis and death. (5) Several of the Simian Immunodeficiency Viruses (SIVs) can infect human cells in tissue culture and there has been documented infection of humans with SIVs (e.g., infection of a laboratory worker with SIVmac). (6)

    Evidence suggests that transmission of certain infectious agents from nonhuman primates to humans can have serious public health consequences. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVa...n/Guidances/Xenotransplantation/ucm074730.htm
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  12. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    And let's not forget the retroviruses they found in the xenograft and other cell lines. Oops how did they get in there? And how long has that been happening and they were unaware?

    Infection of xenotransplanted human cell lines by murine retroviruses: a lesson brought back to light by XMRV 17 June 2013 Front. Oncol., | doi: 10.3389/fonc.2013.00156

    Infection of xenotransplanted human cells by xenotropic retroviruses is a known phenomenon in the scientific literature, with examples cited since the early 1970s.

    many additional cell lines that underwent xenotransplantation in mice have been shown to harbor murine gammaretroviruses.


    Frequent Detection of Infectious Xenotropic Murine Leukemia Virus (XMLV) in Human Cultures Established from Mouse XenograftsPurpose

    To investigate the frequency of xenotropic murine leukemia virus (MLV) presence in human cell lines established from mouse xenografts and to search for the evidence of horizontal viral spread to other cell lines.
    Such retroviral infection poses the threat of not only confounding experiments performed in these cell lines via virus-induced changes in cellular behavior but also the potential infection of other cell lines cultured in the same laboratory.

    Thus, the possibility of xenotropic retroviral infection of cell lines may warrant additional precautions, such as periodic testing for retroviral sequences in cell lines cultured in the laboratory.
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  13. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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  14. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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  15. Bob

    Bob

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    However, it is interesting that Dr Lipkin found retroviruses in his own study, albeit at the same rate in patients and controls. So perhaps this story hasn't completely run its course.
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  16. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    As Gandolf once said to me: 'Anything is possible. Doesn't mean it is so. Or that it warrants undue speculation. Gimme a science paper and then I might be able to detect some relevance.'
  17. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    Murine Endogenous Retroviruses in Human Cancer Cell Lines
    The lesson of XMRV is a potentially important one. The fact that XMRV arose from xenotransplantation (i.e., xenografting) of CWR22Rv1 through mice – a very common practice when developing cancer cell lines – is particularly concerning. Although most researchers appear to be unaware of the potential contamination threat (Zhang et al., 2011), the infection of xenografted human cell lines with xenotropic retroviruses is well-established in the literature, dating back to the early 1970s (Takeuchi et al., 2008; Sfanos et al., 2011). In 1972, an endogenous feline retrovirus, RD114, was found to have infected human rhabdomyosarcoma cells that had been xenotransplanted through a fetal kitten brain (McAllister et al., 1972). In 1973, there was a similar finding in that a murine type-C retrovirus was isolated from rhabdomyosarcoma cells that had been xenotransplanted through NIH Swiss mice (Todaro et al., 1973). However, the implications of these and other findings have arguably not been fully realized. To date, and particularly after the XMRV controversy, several additional reports highlight the widespread issue of xenotropic MLV (XMLV) contamination of xenotransplanted cell lines (Table 1).

    XMLV Contamination of Non-Xenotransplanted Cell Lines
    Since many of the XMLV-infected cell lines in both the Sfanos et al. (2011) and Zhang et al. (2011) studies were found to be replication competent, the potential for cross-contamination of other cell lines grown in the same facilities is considerable. Indeed, Sfanos et al. (2011) reported that XMRV-negative cell lines that were being cultured in the laboratory at the same time as CWR22Rv1 had become contaminated. Similarly, Zhang et al. (2011) detected XMLV infection of 13 out of 78 non-xenografted cell lines from five different laboratories that were also culturing XMLV-infected xenografted cell lines. In contrast, all 50 cell lines gathered from non-xenograft culturing labs were XMLV-free. The laboratories involved in both studies were using standard BSL2 aseptic technique, highlighting the infective potential of these XMLVs. Therefore, the dangers of XMLV contamination of human cell lines is not limited to xenografted lines, but potentially extends to all additional cell lines being cultured alongside infected lines. If contamination occurs and is not detected, there is significant potential for spreading of the retrovirus, even across laboratories sharing samples.

    [​IMG]
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  18. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    Xenotropic MLV envelope proteins induce tumor cells to secrete factors that promote the formation of immature blood vessels.

    From Conclusion:
    "the results suggest that xenograft approaches commonly used in the study of human cancer promote the evolution of novel retroviruses with pathogenic properties."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23537062
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