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Problems with hormones/methyl folate/ heavy metals/general methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by BA88, May 15, 2012.

  1. BA88

    BA88

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    Hi, So I just got back a few test results from my doc and was wondering if you could help me? I feel it is necessary to fill in some back story in places, some of that info I feel will also be helpful to some people too.

    Firstly the Complete Male Hormones Profile from Genova Diagnostics shows I am low in pregnenolone and DHEA (borderline low). i have read that mercury can cause a reduction in pregnenolone in Andy Cutler’s book “Amalgam illness” so I have ordered some from iherb and will give it a try. Methylation is also poor due to low levels of the methylated estrogens (good estrogens). Estrogens are generally low across the board (except 2-Hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1), this is probably because I was taking DIM at the time which is an aromatase inhibitor. It also encourages conversion of the bad estrogens to good estrogens hence the good 2-OHE1 result. I think estrogens are generally low also because pregnenolone is low causing less testosterone to be aromatised to estrogens. Any thoughts on this?

    I also got my red cell magnesium back which was slightly low. I am now currently injecting 0.5ml of magnesium every other day. This helps with my energy quite a lot, I understand mag has a part to play in methylation too?

    I had a urine DMSA provocation test done also. I have had this once before approx a year and a half ago which showed very high levels of aluminum, mercury, lead, arsenic, barium, copper and nickel! Basically I was a walking toxic dump! The most recent test that came back showed aluminum still quite elevated mercury reduced by more than half, lead is lowered by more than half, arsenic practically gone, barium not detected, copper still high and nickel within limits but still quite high. I took DMSA for 6 months to clear my body burden, I was taking 125mg a day 6 days a week (sundays are lazy!) with breaks. My severe acne disappeared soon after this as did some other annoying problems too. I then added in ALA with the DMSA at a dosage of 100mg a day, same schedule. Things started looking up but chelation is tough sometimes! I am currently only using DMSA as according to Andy Cutler (Amalgam Illness specialist) ALA increases copper retention and could explain why I am still struggling with copper (the white lines/spots on the nails can indicate a zinc deficiency due to copper). To lower copper I am taking 100mg zinc and 2,000mcg of molybdenum daily. I have noticed I felt a little more ‘normal’ since doing this. The white lines on my fingernails are fading and growing out too. Strange! Copper also blocks zinc, folate and B1 so I want less of it!

    I understand people will tell me that this schedule goes against Andy Cutlers idea of perfect chelation however as I far as I am concerned I wanted to get this stuff out of me as fast as I could without causing too many side effects. It seems to be working for me.

    I am now currently taking TMG 1,000mg which has improved my allergies (wheat, dairy, yeast) and energy. I experienced diarrhea for a week or so after introducing TMG and then noticed after this that I could tolerate starchy foods again i.e. potatoes, parsnips and cooked carrots. These would normally give me bad diarrhea. I have only started taking TMG recently so the test was performed before I started taking it. However before the test was done I was taking methyl B-12 and folinic acid (5-Formyl Tetrahydrofolate) so clearly methylation was still poor despite this. I have tried methyl folate in the past but simply cannot tolerate it, it makes me feel extremely tired and fatigued and a bit depressed too. I have read on this forum that could be due to a COMT or CBS problem. I have tried to understand this by using this website;

    http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Outcomes-Non-CV-Autism-Methyl Cycle.htm

    It gives a good explanation of it. However it is all a bit much too take in and I am not sure why I cannot tolerate methyl folate. What could be causing this?

    Due to my intolerance of thiols (sulphur) I have been on a low thiol diet since maybe two years ago. Reducing thiols made me feel a whole lot better. Only last week I introduced some cruciferous vegetable and tolerated them well. Normally this would of given me terrible headaches and fatigue. From what I have gathered from Andy Cutler thiols cause mercury to be redistributed around the body. Garlic and onions are still a no go, probably because they are very sulphury, these make me feel terrible still.

    Recently I also introduced Norival which contains P5P, something I couldn’t previously tolerate due to the fact it drives cysteine which I think was causing mercury distribution. Well now I can tolerate two caps (20mg P5P). This has improved my mood so much! I wonder if this ties into the COMT or CBS problem somehow? I decided to introduce this as aluminum blocks the enzyme necessary to recycle BH2 into BH4. It is still clear from the DMSA test that I am still dealing with aluminum. Seems to be working….. It seems to of increased my dopamine and serotonin. I feel happier and brighter.
     
  2. place

    place Be Strong!

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    potassium! are you taking it? I started the mythel process and it was not until I added potassium did I feel better. It was within 20 minutes or so. It was amazing. As you continue with methly, the increase in potassium will not be linear. I went from taking 500mg for two weeks and then after 4 (last two weeks on Potassium) weeks on the meth protocol my body needed between 2500-3000. There was nothing gradual about it.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ba88,

    Starting methylfolate will generally casue a drop in potassium within a few days which will have a person feeling terrible. After that is corrected, and it may take 2000-3000mg/day of potassium every day, next there is often the "donut hole" folate insufficiency. A small amount of Metafolin gerts so much healing started that the same dose can't sustain the healing. Typically, in the ABSENCE OF PARADOXICAL FOLATE DEFICIENCY, 2400-3200mcg of Metafolin is often sufficient but can go as high as 30,000mcg.
     
  4. BA88

    BA88

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    Hi,

    So where do I go from here, starting potassium?

    I am a bit apprehensive about the methyl folate as it does make me feel really ill. I was typically taking between 400mcg-800mcg. Shall I start the potassium first and then add in the methyl folate? At what dosage do you think I need the methyl folate?
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi BA,

    If metafolin makes you feel really ill that is usually lack of potassium. Try a 500mg dose with 16 ounces of water. If it is potassium it should help pretty quickly.
     
  6. BA88

    BA88

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    thanks I have got some potassium from the health food shop.....let's see if it works. I will try methyl folate 400mcg. Already taking folinic acid (5-formyl tetrahydrofolic) at 400mcg so total of 800mcg. Is that too much?

    I am also taking TMG 1,000mg and methyl B-12 injections every other day (0.1ml). Is that going to overdrive the cycle leading to glutathione depletion?
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, BA88.

    To lower the aluminum, you might consider using calcium-sodium EDTA. DMSA doesn't bind aluminum very well, but EDTA does. Make sure you do NOT use disodium EDTA, as that can deplete calcium and cause serious problems.
    I recommend working with your physician on the EDTA chelation.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    Rich, is EDTA calcium disodium OK? (the Holistic Health Bactisolve).
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI BA88,

    The other major likelyhood of feeling bad with the folagtes you are taking is that the folinic acid, ganged up with vegetable folate, is causing paradoxical folate deficiency. For that you would need to stop folinic acid and titrate metafolin until the foate deficiecny symptoms stop.
     
  10. BA88

    BA88

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    Fredd, thank you. The pattern I have seen with myself is that methylfolate gives me a great boost in energy and mood but then eventually leads me to crash. I tried some potassium and I have found at the moment I need between 2,000mg-2,750mg. Low and behold potassium definitely helps with that immediate crash after taking methyfolate (I usually used to crash literally within an hour of taking methylfolate). Are you saying I should increase the dose of methylfolate slowly and monitor? Would that mean I would need more potassium too? I have stopped the folinic acid as of three days ago, hard to tell if it helped though. Is it worth dropping the TMG? I feel it has benefitted me. I got some strange gastro symptoms which seemed like die off after using it at 1,000mg. But after that cleared up I generally felt better for it.

    Do you have any ideas or info on BH4? I tried it and it made me feel great for a few days but after that I got the same reaction I got with methylfolate - crash! I'm not sure if I should try it again now whilst taking potassium. Can BH4 cause this paradoxical folate deficiency? The formula I tired is called Norival which also has p-5-p. I know I have issues with p-5-p at the 50mg dosage range. So 10mg seems too low to cause me any problems...

    Rich thank you. I will try some EDTA when my mercury levels are down. I have heard from a few different sources that EDTA can cause issues with mercury toxic individuals. But willing to give it a go. Regarding the TMG do you recommend it? Thanks.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi BA88,

    Do you have any ideas or info on BH4? I tried it and it made me feel great for a few days but after that I got the same reaction I got with methylfolate - crash!

    Anything that is a "limiting factor" that is supplemented can increase the rate of healing and hence, potassium usage.

    Are you saying I should increase the dose of methylfolate slowly and monitor? Would that mean I would need more potassium too?

    Sometimes a minor adjustment is needed but there is no direct feedback cycle. Any adjustment might be a few hundred mg of potassium. When healing is triggered the potassium typically ends up between 2000-3000mg or so and folate, in the absence of paradoxical folate deficiency Metafolin ends up around 1600-3200mcg OR SO. If it goes 2-6 times as much then there is usually paradoxical folate deficiency of one or both forms.


    Why would you want to drop TMG. It is usually beneficial or does nothing. That may change as healing continues as a mtter of routine.
     
  12. BA88

    BA88

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    Thanks Fredd, I hope you don't mind but I wish to ask you a few questions which I can't seem to find answers to on the forums.

    Regarding injections vs sublingual. I have read that injections once a day of methyl B-12 are not going to be as effective as sublingual two or three times daily....is this indeed true? If so I would like to drop the injections and use either the jarrow or enzymatic methyl B-12. What are the corrct rations of methyl B-12/adenosylcobalamin and methyl folate? And is Is adenosylcobalamin really necessary?

    What are the chances of over driving the methylation cycle when it comes to doses you generally quote with paradoxical folate deficiency? Rich seems to think this would cause a problem....

    In the ABSENCE of paradoxical folate deficiency can taking folinic acid make methyl folate absorption harder?

    Lastly concerning the TMG, I was unsure whether or not it is necessary. I am already taking a lot of supplements anyway so it's kind of one more thing to take...!
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I somehow remember reading that Cutler revised his position on ALA and copper retention.
     

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