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Problems beginning methylation, needing some direction

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Tiger Lily 813, Feb 17, 2014.

  1. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Hi all,
    I'm new here and I had a bad b12/folate experience, trying to make sense of where I went wrong.

    Background: Sensitive nervous system for 10 yrs, MCS, maybe chronic Lyme or related infection, probably leaky gut, long term adrenal fatigue & recent (Nov '13) adrenal burnout-

    In trying to heal adrenal problems, the first thing that actually helped was B12 & Folate (coenzymated); this made a tremendous difference for 2 weeks in my ability to do things (B12 1000mcg, Folate 1000 mcg), mood, sleep, energy, typing accuracy, and more. Then after 2 wks, I got manic anxiety, panic, photo sensitivity, it was so terrible & scary so I stopped it for a few days. I'm scared to restart, but my initial response indicates this is a necessary ingredient for me. I am able to work an easy full-time office job, so I don't want to be going crazy. Even if I wasn't working- I really don't ever want to get in such a bad way again. I could also tell that afterward it was an adrenal stress (lower back ache) so I need to keep it from getting so drastic.
    I didn't start this as an attempt at the Freddd Protocol. I just saw vague suggestions on adrenal fatigue blogs that said adding in the folate is important. I had been taking Methyl B12 & P5P for ages before this and never noticed much from them, so this implies I was/am folate deficient.
    I've been looking all over this site to find out what I should've done that would've controlled this response properly.
    Am I wrong- does the response sound like I shouldn't be near the folate?
    Some people suggest potassium (although I'm always told I need more magnesium and I thought they were antagonists?) and others say niacinamide (I took this after the overmethylation incident, but it didn't seem to do much of anything).
    I'm not ready to launch into a full scale methylation protocol because I want to use candida treatments, and increase zinc (lower copper) first. Doing them all at once would be way too much, and difficult to tell what's doing what.
    My diet is very limited in sugars/grains; I take a lot of alternating natural antibiotics (and probiotics) to control bacteria/possible lyme/parasites; haven't had the genetic methylation tests, but will.
    I am basically looking to establish a balanced and low key B vitamin regimen to keep me on track during a month of working on the gut health/minerals. I do take a liquid B complex but I'm not sure what to do with the additional B12/Folate, Pantothenic Acid dosages, etc.
    Not sure if I am generally an over or under methylator. I have in the past always had hangovers from very little alcohol. So probably regularly an under methylator, but the folate certainly had me over methylating.

    Questions:
    -I did have muscle cramps, but not severe. Would the potassium have helped control the anxiety/panic symptoms as well? I did not however have palpitations like many of you speak of. What are the forms/dosages of potassium that you guys are taking? Are food sources are not enough?

    -Why did my intolerance seem to build up over two weeks when I was steady with the dosage-not increasing?

    -In general what does the anxiety/overdrive response indicate? I know a lot of others experience more fatigue, headaches, etc. That was certainly not my experience although I did get a weird headache before I had that manic episode.

    -Where is Zinc in all of this?

    My plan is to probably try out LOWER dose folate (400mcg) on Mondays and Thursdays only so that I have some coming in, but I'm not going overboard. Once I go through my month with the Nystatin (for Candida), and Zinc increase then I will come back to focus on methylation (gently).

    Any insight is much appreciated; thank you for contributing to my healing!
  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    It could very well be that you started with a too high dosage, especially folate, 1000mcg is a pretty high dose to start with. I started at 800mcg, my anxiety skyrocketed and I immediately stopped it and started back at 400mcg. Now I can handle 800 without problems but it took me 10 days to get accustomed to it.

    Also B12, especially methyl-B12 can push you to the edge, so to speak. The idea is to start with a low dose and be patient for a while, while your body adjusts. If no problems arise in 7-8 days you can try to increase the dose a bit.

    I would try with safer dosages of 250-500mcg of B12 and 200-400mcg of folate, and gradually add more.

    About this I don't feel I have enough experience. Search in this forum "potassium deficiency" you will find lots of useful posts.

    Good luck
  3. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Thank you so much! Yes, I found out afterward that the dose was too high to start- I didn't realize the profound effect it would have. That's strange though that my tolerance weakened, instead of adjusting. Meaning, I had two weeks where I felt fine at that dose, and later felt like I began suffering from an accumulation. Regardless I definitely agree that I should take it down quite a bit in my dosage and frequency.
    I might have not been able to furnish the response well due to adrenal fatigue. I have read many times that people with adrenal fatigue "don't respond well to B-12," but B-12 alone never did much, I guess until I added the methylfolate in.
    That's really helpful to see that you're suggesting the B-12 /Folate to be taken in a 1:1 ratio. That's good to know I was thinking of only cutting back the folate since I thought of it as being the active ingredient, but it's the combination, not just the folate.
  4. girlfromeurope

    girlfromeurope Senior Member

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    Probably potassium
    I got the same reaction after 2 weeks(it was terrible) and found out I was low in potassium
  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    How did you find out? Blood test? Or just trying the potassium supplements?

    Thanks
  6. girlfromeurope

    girlfromeurope Senior Member

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    I tried potassium supplements
    And it's best to take a bit magnesium too.
  7. skwag

    skwag

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    I second ( or third ) the potassium suggestion. Low potassium affects my mood first, then I start with muscle twitches and when it gets worse the cramps start.

    I find the potassium gluconate works fine. The cheapest bottle you can get at the market will do. I usually find relief by taking 3 x 99mg tablets with a glass water ( in addition to the 6 tablets I take normally with other supplements ). If potassium is the problem you should feel some relief within a half hour. The tablets are fast acting, as opposed to food which takes a long time for the potassium to hit your bloodstream.
  8. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Tiger Lily 813 : You might want to read up on "Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency", too. Search it in the forum. I'm new here but have been reading A LOT, and it sounds like you were exhibiting symptoms of that. It's Freddd's theory and seems to hold true for many people (but not all).

    Briefly, the theory is that in order to get well there are multiple levels of healing we must go through to reach wellness. Your first doses of folate start you on that healing. But if the dose is too low to affect *all* the necessary levels of healing, eventually the folate gets spread to thin and can't keep the healing going. So you need progressively larger doses for a while, until you feel normal again. The progressively larger doses keep the healing going.

    It's like cars using gasoline (with the cars being the levels of healing and gas being the folate). One car can get pretty far on one gallon of gas...in the same way that if you only need to heal a little bit, a single 800mcg tab of folate will do you pretty well.

    But if you have four cars and need to split that gallon of gas four ways...none of those cars are going to go very far. You need more gas (folate) or you just won't go.

    Adding more folate can keep the healing going so the healing keeps going.

    Low potassium is also a sign of the paradoxical folate insufficiency. My understanding is that when sludgy cells that haven't been using potassium in a while get kick-started by the folate/methylation supps, they suddenly start intaking potassium again, sucking all available potassium from your bloodstream (or wherever it comes from, like I said I'm new so still sorting it all out, LOL). So you need to add more potassium so your awakened cells can keep on using it, or eventually your cells will run out, making you feel crappy and causing other symptoms. It's basically like a sponge needing more water to become saturated.

    I'm no expert, just, like I said, a noob with a lot of what she's read still fresh in her mind. And trying to explain what I've read to other people helps me sort things out in my own head.

    Not saying the paradoxical insufficiency is your problem...but it probably wouldn't hurt for you to read up on it, if you haven't already.
    ahmo and Tiger Lily 813 like this.
  9. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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    Thank you for this simple explanation of paradoxical insufficiency. I've been reading lots and most goes right over my brain foggy head.

    I still can't figure out if my problem is too much folate or paradoxical insufficiency. Can taking too much folate cause the paradoxical insufficiency? i had been taking progressively higher does of both b12s, and a fairly moderate dose of folate ( 400-800 mcg, sometimes more). I had some low potassium symptoms, and intense headaches in particular, but not too bad. In addition to potassium and magnesium I decided to try increasing the folate, not really understanding what dose I should be taking along with the high doses of b12. I bought 1000 mcg capsules, and added one, sometimes two a day. I didn't notice an immediate reaction, positive or negative, but looking back over the last few weeks I realize I feel worse than ever (mostly group 2 and 3 symptoms on Freddd's list) and I don't know if it is my high doses of mb12 and adb12 (i was up to 10 mg of each) or the folate or something else.

    To complicate things I ran out of mb12 on about Monday and so since then I am still taking potassium and magnesium and fish oil, and sometimes the folate but sometimes not - unsure whether it will make me f worse or better. Last night and this morning I feel worse than ever - general worsening of symptoms, headache, fatigue, anxiety, malaise...

    Wondering if this is "withdrawal" from stopping b12 (my iherb shipment is stuck at the border!) or too much folate or not enough. If it is paradoxical insufficiency, how much do i take per day to,come out of it? do i keep taking the folate now or wait until the b12 comes in? Any insight would be much appreciated!
  10. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Thanks so so much to everybody here for their shared experiences : ) As each body is unique I feel mine is asking for the easy does it approach and therefore I am investigating Rich and Amy's milder protocols. Maybe one day I will need to do the Freddd method, but as I am in such a very sensitive and fragile state, I really don't want to be upping my dosages and blocking it back and forth with large doses of potassium. Maybe someday that will be better, but right now I'd rather keep the whole ratio lower. I do have potassium on hand as well as niacinamide in case methylation needs to be slowed, and I will definitely get my doctor to look at my levels next week.
    Another interesting point here is that after a few days of taking a folate break, I took solgar 400mcg folate this morning (and this was a switch in brands for me) and don't really feel anything. A few days ago I took what was maybe about 300 mcg of the pure encapsulations capsule form of folate, and it was working like gangbusters. I didn't realize there was such an inconsistency amongst brands/forms. So then to compare with those taking the Solgar, my initial dosing was probably infinitely out of hand... That would explain a lot : )
  11. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    So to be clear since this might be useful info to someone - my experience is that the Pure Encapsulations capsules are much stronger than the Solgar tablets.
  12. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    I would be hesitant to come to that conclusion after only one trial. There are too many variables. Taking folate is not like taking a painkiller which absorbs and works predictably within a set timeframe. Reactions to starting, stopping and starting folate again are unpredictable.
  13. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Thank you!! Yes I will update if my experience changes : )
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @whodathunkit,
    I like your explanation. I fully implemented Freddd's Protocol a year ago. Now that I'm not overwhelmed with putting one foot in front of the other in getting this thing going, I decided just yesterday it's time to actually understand folate and what it's doing. Now that I'm up to nearly 10 mg MTHF, I looked at the wikipedia "folic acid" entry, and cringed at the near-miss of real disaster in my life. ....ahmo
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  15. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Tiger Lily 813, @mgd1972 & @ahmo...FYI, while I was reading the forum again yesterday, I realized paradoxical insufficiency is not necessarily the same as donut hole insufficiency.

    Paradoxical insufficiency is when you're taking a form of folic acid or folinic acid that your body can't use, it blocks whatever methylfolate you're intaking that your body *can* use, and thus causes deficiency. It's a paradox because it seems like you're getting the nutrients your body needs by the amount you're taking, as well as in blood tests. But you're having weird and disturbing symptoms of poor health. The paradox is caused by the folic or folinic acid, not the methylfolate.

    Freddd says donut hole only occurs with intaking insufficient methylfolate for the body's needs. Some levels of healing/symptoms are slipping through the hole. That is what causes the weird and disturbing symptoms with the donut hole.

    Both are problems of methylfolate insufficiency, but for different reasons.

    Read this thread, it gave me a better understanding of insufficiencies, methyltrap, etc.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...rong-reaction-from-taking-methylfolate.21896/

    (Thank gawd for copy-n-paste and being able to save documents. How on earth college students (or anyone, really) survived without computers is beyond me. And I remember the days of manual typewriters...I learned to type on one. Looking back, lack of computers may be one thing that kept me out of college until I was in my 30's... :cool:)
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014

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