Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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probiotics question

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Daffodil, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    hi all. i take antibiotics 3 times a day. is there any point in taking probiotics?

    looking for opinions...

    thanks!
    daff
     
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  2. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    Although you are diminishing their effectiveness, I can't imagine a time when you would need them more. Contrary to what I've heard previously, taking probiotics WITH meals is actually more effective.

    Perhaps that would help you "turn the tide".
     
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  3. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I'm not sure there is any real evidence to show they work at all. The theory is great but there is currently poor methods for capturing what's going on so it really comes down to subjective opinion. Stool tests, biochemical markers (such as oat) and artificial gut models do not reflect what's actually going on in terms of populations in the small and large intestine and so are open to a lot of interpretation. We are bombarded by information but a lot of it is fake. This area is so complex it's like mapping the effect of a butterfly population in Africa and its affect on kangaroo populations in Australia. This is way more complicated than is portrayed by many advocates of probiotics.

    This lack of scientific evidence has led to the EU removing permitted product claims for all probiotics. I would save your money if I were you unless you can see a marked difference either way that isn't an affect of diet or other factors.
     
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  4. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    You wouldn't be here if they didn't work. Your ancestors would have starved to death.

    I like your idea of saving money though, some of the most powerful probiotics I've encountered can be, essentially, free.

     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  5. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Just to clarify.....I meant there is no evidence to support that buying commercial products developed by humans for money called "probiotics" have any tangible effect on your gut biome.

    I was not disputing that there is a gut biome. I was just saying that this is vast and complex and we have very little understanding of it and therefore very little control of it.

    We have way more bacterial and fungal cells in our body than human cells .....and the flora makes up many many different species that interact with each other and operate in mini biomes in the different environments of the gut. Putting a couple of lactobacilli through the stomach and expecting them to overpopulate an existing poplulation without knowing what that population is, what environment it lives in or how it interacts with other species, is like trying to control all the species in Africa by setting free door-mice in the Sahara and expecting them to curtail the zebra populations further south.

    Diet and boosting the immune system is likely to be the more likely ways of re-balancing gut flora, not trying to control it by introducing test inoculations via the stomach into an environment that is clearly not working for them.
     
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  6. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    I agree with you that diet is the most reasonable change to make in adjusting the gut's microbiome, it does, however, involve the consumption of probiotics and prebiotics. It always has.

    As for your statement,
    There is a ridiculous amount of evidence.
     
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  7. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    There is a ridiculous amount of evidence.[/QUOTE]
    Think we will have to agree to disagree. I have read up on this lots and when you take out the mumbo jumbo opinionated non scientific trash, there is absolutely nothing substantive that shows a direct benefit to health with any clear measures that show the direct effect. There is a lot of speculation which is good, but no definitive study that I'm aware of.

    If you have something new, then I'm happy to read through (when I have the energy) but I haven't found anything compelling yet.
     
  8. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  9. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Here are a couple of threads worth reading:

    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/probiotics/Pages/Introduction.aspx

    http://www.nutraingredients.com/Reg...weights-debate-the-EU-s-health-claim-blockade

    the last one has a good debate about the problems with scientific methodology and attributing specific health claims to specific probiotics. Hopefully now the bad science has been given a bit of a kick by the EU, companies like Yakult etc can start proving their claims a little better and investing in the right sort of research instead of trying to bamboozle the public with unsubstantiated claims?
     
  10. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    The right sort of research?

    Japanese companies have foregone profit, organisms that make tastier yoghurt or more profitable yoghurt, and focused on reducing healthcare costs by extensive research and application of probiotics that benefit the public, without many even knowing it. It is quite admirable.

    I regularly consume Bacillus subtilis var. natto for prevention of heart disease.

    I like that sort of research.

    https://www.google.co.jp/#q=nattokinase nih&*
     
  11. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Right here is a conclusion from one of the papers sited as good research:

    The gut immune system interacts with the gut microbiota and maintains intestinal homeostasis. Accumulating evidence supports the idea that imbalance in this complicated network between the host and the microbiota is involved in the pathogenesis of gut inflammatory diseases, including IBD. Recently, various studies have explored adjustment of dysbiosis, using probiotics or fecal microbiota transplantation [2, 141143]. However, it is unclear how these treatments act on the host immune system and commensal bacteria. CBM588 has been long used in clinical settings in Japan. Our recent findings using animal models suggest that CBM588 may induce IL-10-producing immunoregulatory macrophages and have potential as a safer therapeutic option for gut inflammatory diseases. Further clinical evidence of targeting the gut microbiota or combination with conventional therapy will be gathered from clinical and basic research into the microbiota and disease.

    My summary of this is:

    • immune system is linked to gut flora...yes so what?
    • Accumulating evidence supports the idea of imbalance...yes correct.... a lot of people have an idea
    • Other people have tried treating this with faecal transports and probiotics but we don't know whats going on ....yes exactly you don't know enough
    • We've tested in some mice and we've come up with another idea but this needs more testing.

    So in summary they have an idea, they've done a little test and they think maybe something is going on but this needs more work.

    This is not what I call definitive work that shows how probiotics work or their relevance to CFS. As I said before this is very complicated and we will need more than this sort of thing to decide the efficacy of any treatment.

    Until this happens it is pot luck and more of a faith thing (Like a lot of CFS treatments). I'm not knocking the ideas, just the proof that they are anything but an idea. I certainly think that curtailing over promoted pack claims from Yakult and others was the right call.
     
  12. starlighter

    starlighter

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    Probiotics have changed my gut from utter hell into something that is functioning 100 times better than it was.
    I read anything I could on Ken's blog he covers everything from herbs, probiotics to antibiotics and everything gut related. Right hand side of page for different topics to click on.
    https://cfsremission.com/
     
  13. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    @IThinkImTurningJapanese @arewenearlythereyet @starlighter

    oh no! lol I did not mean to start an argument. I should have been more clear. I meant..is there any point in taking probiotics if I take antibiotics at so many points in the day, that it would be impossible to take the probiotics too far away, timewise, from the antibiotics? so the effects of the probiotics are not negated by the antibiotics, etc...

    I do agree that taking with food is better...I read some study about that.

    LMAO at name IThinkImTurningJapanese

    thanks!
     
  14. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    No arguments here other than a healthy good natured debate ;)

    We seem to have gone astray though....:D
     
  15. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    That's a good question, I THINK the answer is that broad-spectrum antibiotics are not that complete in eliminating bacteria from the gut, if so we would have big problems. But, I'm not a Doctor or Specialist.

    I'm little more than a Vapor. :rofl:

     
  16. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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  17. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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  18. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Probiotics don't colonise the gut but do appear to have some effect on the host immune system as they transit through.

    The other thing that is valuable, particularly when taking antibiotics, is that their presence may prevent nasty things from taking up residence.

    Particularly if you are taking the antibiotics for an extended period, I'd be inclined to take a high dose probiotic. The fact that there is so much disagreement about when to take suggests to me that it doesn't really matter. In your case, as far away from the antibiotics as possible.

    Maybe bedtime.
     
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  19. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    Absolutely! Yes. Take them several times a day, just not within 2 hours before or after taking the antibiotic. Also eat lots of yogurt (with active bacteria) and kefir.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  20. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    Tell that to someone who gets diarrhea from taking antibiotics. The single strain probiotics such as Align, Florastor, and Culturelle have been shown to be very effective when taken along with antibiotics.
     

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