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Probiotics for the nose

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by joe12, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    Anyone tried a probiotic for the nose, or yogurt to fight chronic sinus infections? Could something go wrong making it worse?
     
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I've not tried that. Have done lots of other things but not that yet.
     
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  3. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    I am pretty sure I have seen an ad for nasal probiotics somewhere.
     
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  4. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I wouldn't shove some random stuff up there. Your nose has a different microbiome to your gut and what's appropriate for one might not be appropriate for the other.
     
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  5. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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  6. jop

    jop

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    I've certainly stuck 'probiotics' up my nose to clear a persistent nasal Staph. Aureaus infection, which was spreading and causing some sinusitis. I had surgery to remove a pituitary tumor (acromegaly) via the nose in February last year. Afterwards the mucosal lining had a lof of persistent 'crusting' (they really call it that) for 18 months, which quickly became infected. The method worked and the problem has stayed fixed, whereas it just came back after oral or topical antibiotics. The medical literature makes it pretty clear that antibiotics seldom solve a nasal staph infection, so I tried something else.....

    Here's are the things I did to clear it.

    1) Lactobacillus Sakei topically
    2) Snot transplants!
    3) Zinc supplementation
    4) Mechanical resting of the nostril

    1) There is one small paper written about Lactobacillus Sakei for sinusitus, which is described in detail on http://lactobacto.com. That site also describes how to source and use it. Basically, mix it with a bit of water and stick it up your nose with a finger, but not too far. The sources are either bio cultures for meat, produced by Christian Hansen, or some varieties of Korean fermented vegetable kimichi. The CRH Hansen product they talk about on lactobacto.com is a starter culture for european fermented meat/salami called Bactoferm, which is L. Sakei plus something else. CHR Hansen also does a bio protective culture for meat which contains L. Sakei only, simply called B2. That is the one I used. This gave quite a quick result but too much seemed a bit aggravating - once every third day seemed about right for me.

    2) Before the L. Sakei experiment I tried snot transplants, because if faecal transplants work for C. Diff, maybe it would be worth a try. I spoke to an ENT specialist about this beforehand, he seemed relaxed about it even though, post-op, I have a lot fewer layers between my sinuses and brain than most people. The strategy was to send my partner for a walk in cold winter weather and get a liquid sample blown into a small container. At first I used a finger to administer but then I changed to disposable plastic dropper pipettes because it's kind of gross and slimy! When the staph growth was heavy, I had to do this almost every day to make progress. The healthy nose microbiome is quite varied, so it made sense to me to introduce variety post antibiotic, but this is a completely experimental approach.

    3) Later in the process I found I had a Zinc defficiency. After supplementing zinc, I feel that the probiotic methods worked a lot better and I haven't had to repeat anything. About 10 days further probiotic treatment and it was all gone.

    4) Because my problem was partly post-op crusting harbouring Staph, I had to do something to get the crusting out of there, but I'm not sure if it's much use for those who haven't had surgery. The primary problem is the nose isn't moist enough once the mucosa is damaged by surgery. I read about something called modified Young's operation, which closes the nostril to stop air flow drying it out while it heals. So I taped over most of the opening of the damaged nostril at night, leaving only a 3mm hole to breath through on that side, to stop it drying much over night when there is little snot production. The final step was completely blocking it off for half an hour or so in the morning, when mucous production picks up, which was enough to allow me to blow those softened up boogers out. Woohoo. I'm keeping on with this till the nose has healed better so the crusting doesn't come back.

    Hope this info helps someone but use at your own risk, nothing here is tried or tested!
     
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  7. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    Hmm interesting, any recall on any detail? I think a doctor is working on a patent but its probably years to go. I recently learned about l. sakei, a bacteria that is remarkable for protecting and curing some people of chronic sinusitis. It can be obtained from a product for culturing meat, but it can die on shipping. As for preventing some biofilms, a solution of water and saline with 1% (1.20 ml) baby shampoo, 120 ml per total per wash.

    Nothing else learned so far, other than the doctor that did the l. sakei study said a good community of bacteria is needed for better and longer results, but there is no approved probiotic for this.
     
  8. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    If you have chronic sinus problems, then maybe you should consider l. sakei, it can be obtained from fermented kimchi (could be risky), or from a meat culturing product called Bactoferm F-RM-52 (less risky?). http://lactobacto.com/our-story/

    I also learned that a solution of water, salt, and baby shampoo (1% of total solution, 1.20 ml for 120 ml total) can significantly reduce biofilm production. http://www.neilmed.com/articles/babyshampoo.pdf
     
  9. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    WOW that is great stuff. I learned about the sakei recently and I think I will get the bactoferm, I feel its less risky. I was also thinking about getting a snot transplant, thought I was the only one to think about this. Not sure who to select for this, I guess someone from family who doesn't get many colds. Awkward request but probably worth it.

    I think I will try rinsing with baby shampoo before the sakei and snot to get some biofilm and bacteria out. My infection has gotten bad, no improvement. I have a lot of skin dandruff or exfoliation on my eyebrows, and I thought it could be the liver but now think it can be the bacteria. I have some conjunctivitis, but am pretty sure its not viral. Recently learned s. aureus produces hyaluronidase, which degrades hyaluronic acid, whose degradation could be behind the degeneration of the gel inside my eyes (vitreous syneresis) and its posterior detachment.
     
  10. jop

    jop

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    @joe12 The only probiotic I've seen marketed for the nose is iFlora nasal, but it's an oral supplement supposed to help the mucosal linings or epithelium somehow and didn't seem to do me any good. Also it has a strep in it, which I don't want in my gut!

    It makes some sense to rinse the nose first, but I wonder whether there is some point in the attempt to recolonise that it becomes better not to.

    Interesting about the hyaluronidase production. Hyaluronidase acid is used in a Neilmed product to soothe dry mucosa.

    Another thing that might interest you is reading up on NO production in the nose and sinuses. It helps get rid of infections, as well as being a vasodilator. There is some talk about investigating it as a therapeutic method. Humming can temporarily increase nasal NO. There seem to be intriguing ties with the NO situation for ME/CFS as discussed in the thread about Jay Goldstein.

    One sensible precaution for someone interested in snot transplants might be to get a doctor to swab a potential donors nose first. Staph. Aureaus carriage in the nose is quite prevalent in the general population. I read that men have higher overall bacteria counts than women in the nose so I'm guessing might provide better donors. If they are carrying SA it's more likely they will culture positive. My partner was my donor, because I figured we probably share anything nasty to some extent already.

    Sorry I can't recall all the references for this stuff, a bit brain dead at the moment.
     
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  11. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    Unfortunately, no.
     
  12. jop

    jop

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    @heapsreal, here is the thread with the two posts you might find useful.
     
  13. EtherSpin

    EtherSpin Senior Member

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    just please everyone promise that even with brain fog we won't get our transplant samples mixed up :)
     
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  14. student

    student Senior Member

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    Yes. The Nose is a focus-region to me. I read about your (baby-) Shampoo rinsing. How is that going – could that be more riski @nose, no? Make shure you can moist – protect nasal mucosa after that. Can Mikroorganism just stay moist in all these hidden sinuses and conchae of our nose? My version to changes nasal system is rather rude. I have looked for a good and 6 layer WC - tissue paper (that I can well trust). Into each nostril goes a 3x 2 cm strip. In fresh air I would leaf my nostrils open. That is only for the daily 30 min- (1 h) walk outside. That way everything stays relatively moist. The tissue is exchanged twice a day – minimum. For the last 2 mounth I had used this paper tissue together with a nasal propulis cream application. (I start to take this tissue without anything else now.) It still helps my protection against any residual traces of mould in this familie house. Step by step, slowly- slowly more of these rooms come close to be mould free.

    I have than learned to clean well @my throat and upper pharynx: I take salt on my tongue and add 2 drops „citracidal“ (extract) than oildrawing and I also scrub my tongue. And only after 3- 4 weeks of good morning and evening cleans other symptoms became better. So much of it was in my throat or on my tongue.

    My nasal rins and cleanse was not so effective. Wereas my gaining strength and the good overall reaction to the Myrrhe @cellulae etmoidalis therapie was fantastique and lasting (with continuation of other supporting things).

    With Salt &C vitamin (SC) – mentioned in Lyme therapies – I had started one mounth ago. I am carefull to use Himalaya-Salt. Some of Vitamin C -I have with fruits. Together all continuations of these attempts lead more and more to the impression that I am winning over the long run.
     
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  15. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    Is this the propulis you have used? http://beehealthyfarms.com/product.php?id_product=61
    Is it still working well?
    Is the citracidal the same as grape seed extract?

    I stopped the shampoo thing after two tries, its quite irritating and I am not sure about the study, it only reduced new biofilm formation, not existing ones, so its not worth it for me since I already have so much irritation. I have not found a good mucus transplant candidate, they all get weirded out.

    Recently was found to possibly have citrobacter koseri bacteria in the nose, this is not common in the nose. This bacteria destroys microvilli, its opportunistic, its pathogenicity is not well understood, its booth aerobic and anaerobic, it can also grow inside macrophages. Since it has high sensitivity to antibiotics I have already used and still has moderate growth, then I guess its hiding somewhere, or it just keeps coming back due to a lack of bacterial competition.

    What I consider doing now is to buy some lactobacillus sakei from a meat curing product called bactoferm f rm-52, this bacteria was found to considerably reduce chronic rhinosinusitis in mice that where given antibiotics fallowed by a bacteria called corynebacterium tuberculostearicum, which was consistently found in people suffering from chronic sinusits and who had a lack of bacterial diversity http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972842
     
  16. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    I could not find the b2 from Hansen, did you buy directly from them? I think that's the one I would buy and its a priority for me to try this.

    I already have S. Aureus, what would worry me are other bacteria and viruses, but I'll take the risk if the donor seems healthy. After a homeless drug user spit on my eye, I might have some creepy bacteria around, who knows if a virus, definitely got eye symptoms after this. But so far I have not found a willing donor that seems healthy enough, they thought it was weird and risky, so I am not sure how to ask for this.

    I supposedly could have citrobacter koseri in the nose, very rare, and this bacteria destroy the microvilli, its both aerobic and anaerobic, and can grow inside macrophages. Its opportunistic, but sensitive to a range of abx that I have used, so it points to lack of bacterial competition. I have to retest this and also test for anaerobic bacteria.

    I also need to stop vaping nicotine, it was found the compounds on ecig liquids harden and stimulate s. aureus, maybe other bacteria too.
     
  17. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    You mean the shampoo or the bacteria? I stopped the shampoo, too irritating. Definitely would try snot from a healthy donor, but this has proven to be difficult. I think the L. Sakei could be promising, but who knows, could be a bummer. Since the risk for me already includes blindness, I'll take the bacteria.
     
  18. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I meant the bacteria.
     
  19. joe12

    joe12 Senior Member

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    Whats the worst that could happen? Meningitis, blindness, autoimmune trigger, cancer, intense pain? Best that could happen is good improvement so I'll take :eek::balloons::confused::cool::rofl:
     

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