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Probiotics and Methylation

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by undcvr, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    I have mentioned on PR somewhere b4 that I am on about 30-45mg of Deplin a day. This has taken care of my chronic fatigue and depression but this is not all that there is to my CFS. I still suffer from an easily over reactive immune system that likes to attack myself, a liver phase 1 detox that is way too fast and a slow liver phase 2. That pretty much sums up CFS for most people if you exclude the gut :)

    As you imagine taking Deplin 3-4 times a day is Not cheap so you can imagine my surprise when I went back on my fall/winter regime that I realize that I can completely do without the Deplin supplements. I started making yogurt at home again with my specific strains. Not only it is very anti inflammatory to the gut it has eliminated my need for Deplin.

    On further research I found out that certain probiotic strains, besides synthesizing the B vitamins, specifically synthesize the active forms of them. Im talking about methylfolate and methylcobalamin. In fact from all that I have read the only B vitamin that might not be synthesized in the gut is B6 and even that is because of lack of research.

    This might be a cheaper alternative for some of you out there instead of Deplin. To try out if this works for you take Danon's Activia or Jarrow EPS and see how you feel. It has to be this specific brand of probiotics and not the others.
     
    sianrecovery likes this.
  2. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi, do you feel that all CFSers have a liver problem? What are the specific strains that work? Thanks
     
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  3. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Senior Member

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    Same questions here. Do you mean you are simply putting a commercial yoghurt starter in to your own milk (and is it raw milk or what)? Thanks.
     
    undcvr likes this.
  4. prioris

    prioris

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    ME/CFIDS is an infection. Your immune system is not attacking you. It senses something but unable to target it. It may be a mycoplasma infection it's trying to target but can't.

    The whole methylation idea is a dead end and should be buried. People who have gone down that route have all ended in failure.

    The idea of auto-immune is also very suspect and disinformation to hide the real cause of the disease. Any supposed auto-immune problem should be assumed to be an infection.
     
    undcvr likes this.
  5. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi, how are you so sure of this? Thanks
     
  6. prioris

    prioris

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    to fully answer your question it may take a book but i will just focus on this aspect.

    Why ME/CFIDS is an infection ?

    People with ME/CFIDS have very high levels of ciguatoxin in their body. This has been proven. The presence of this high level of ciguatoxin only has one possibility - a microbe. I know where the microbe came from but that opens up another big topic.
     
  7. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Activia had me actively heading for the bathroom many time a day. :(
     
    undcvr likes this.
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Please tell me what you know
     
  9. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    I dont think that probiotics can substitute active b-tamins that are needed to force more conversion of glutathione but is good to know your experience. BTW I thought the Activia yoghurt was a scam, didnt they even have legal problems with it?
     
    undcvr likes this.
  10. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    Beyond i wud argue that probiotics r even more beneficial that just straight up B vitamins bcos the right strains of probiotics produce enzymes as well, enzymes that move conversions. And isn't that what we all take B vitamins for in the first place ? B vitamins mostly function as co-enzymes in the body and attach themselves to enzymes to make the metabolic process happen. Activia had a problem trying to patent/trademark it's strain of probiotic. Apparently they can't do that.

    Little Bluestem I don't know your situation well enuf but honestly that sounds like a detox reaction so I can't say for sure yet that it isn't working for you especially if what you had was diarrhea. It's happened to many others as well including myself and it does not necessarily involve taking a probiotic. Over the course of my battle with this illness there are Many things that I have taken that were supposed to help (especially involving the gut) and the opposite happens. But if it is unexplained diarrhea, especially from something that is supposed to be good for you, detox is a very good suspect. It's just the body wanting to purge and and get rid of toxins and waste all at once. It is actually a very good sign, it means that your body is strong enough to do that! It means your body wants to heal and go to a higher place and it seems to know what to do to get to it. The real question is how you feel a few days or a week after it is over. That is the real telling moment. (if you can be sure to directly link the Activia to your bathroom activities baring any other changes in your diet, lifestyle or life, it is definitely a detox).

    Sparrowhawk No its not raw milk it has to be pasturised, in fact raw milk won't work bcos it already has other strains in it from the cow. How about this, if you try Jarrow EPS probiotic and it works for you, then making fresh yogurt daily is something u shud seriously consider bcos of its health and cost benefits. It really is a no brainer, everybody who reads this intuitively feels that way, its just whether your body can take it or not. DO NOT use commercial strains, Not Acidophilus, not Chobani (greek strains).The strains in EPS and Activia are similar but not the same. I have not found enuf info on which wud work better if present in the same amounts but they both work in the large intestine.

    prioris I am not going to argue with you about the root cos of CFS but there was a point in time when I was really really toxic and testing positive left and right for viral infections. I am much better now and healthier too. I must be doing something rite. It all comes down to the base assumption that you have about this disease. Think about it, its chronic and been around you life long. What iszit that makes you more susceptible in the first place ? Why is that same say microbe so much more virulent in you than in someone else ?I have literally been around hundreds of other pple like us gathering up stories and looking for a common threads and actually will argue that there is a very strong psychological component to all this but not the usual nonsense that doctors like to espouse, that is just stupid.
    One other thing, if something or an assumption that you have made does not seem to work, you cannot just keep going round and round trying to force it to. That's just insane and not how nature works. Again I do not know you and not saying that it applies to you just something I think worth mentioning bcos I keep it in mind myself alot.

    About methylation: I have my doubts about it too, it certainly is not a cure that much is obvious by now but you cannot deny the importance of the methylation and gluthatione cycles in the body. It is never a bad thing to make sure that they are working optimally, esp 4 pple with CFS where every little small thing helps. I look at CFS like peeling away an onion many many layers to the cos of the issue not just one thing. Again it is chronic not symptomatic.

    knackers323 There is a concept out there called 'pathological detoxifiers' it is when your liver phase 1 and 2 r completely out of whack. There is no real way to know but to test for this. I have nvr tested for this personally myself but a very good substitute is to take grapefruit juice. If it makes you feel better your liver detox is a big issue. Generally if you respond well to citrus fruits (esp grapefruit and bergamot) your liver detox is screwed up.
     
  11. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Please undcvr, could you precise how you do your own yogurts for beginners ? Mixing the Jarrow EPS with one pasteurized yogurt + pasteurized milk ? thanks
     
  12. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Tell this to the 25% of people that have found major improvement with methylation according to the polls, in both Freddd and RichVank polls. And for sure not all cases are the same, some are about infections, but others are about toxins, autoimmunity, altered intestinal flora and increased intestinal permeability, adrenal fatigue, low thyroid, the whole package of always!
     
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  13. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    I use Donvier's yogurt maker and good quality non-fat or 1 %milk, you know organic, blah blah blah ...
    Then I put about a tsp of honey (do not skip this step!) to 2 cups of milk and heat it up to body temp about 98.6 or the temp range that is indicated on the thermometer that comes with the Donvier machine.
    Next I would put about 1/4 to 1/2 of a EPS capsule, stir thru evenly to mix and then start the machine up.
    The yogurt shud firm in about 8 hrs or less. Drink it straight or mix it into something. It shud be tart and the milk shud be mildly curdled, not too harsh tasting, if it tastes too acidic then u have let the culturing process gone on for too long. It does not taste bad by itself, I quite like it.

    One thing that will become very apparent to you very quickly is that it tastes and look NOTHING like the yogurt that you buy from the store. Makes you wonder what kind of other stuff they put into it to make it turn out that way but that is another story.

    If you buy good quality pasteurized milk the kind that costs about $4-$5 for half a gallon you can skip the step of heating the milk up and letting it cool down. That is a pain. You don't have to let it cool down. Just take it up to the temp you want and then mix in the culture. The reason you can do this is cos the pasteurization wud have killed off most if not all of the indigenous bacteria and bcos u wud have put enuf of the EPS in to overwhelm the rest of the indigenous bacteria in the milk, get a foothold and grow.
     
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  14. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Undcvr, I make kefir everyday. I saw once someone here almost cured with kefir, plus there are studies proving it actually is extremely healthy. I havent noticed much of a change, sadly, although I look relatively good but that might be genetics and my insanely healthy diet. I also sunbath almost everyday. Might be sick but still handsome! lol

    I do agree with you in the idea that intestinal flora is more important for the body than synthetic vitamins in pills. However, the amount of people that have found improvement with methylation makes obvious that both the gut and the detox pathways are important.

    Ahh I see! Your yogurt has some strains beside the Lactobacilli in kefir, two Bifido and one Pediococcus. And all of the others are specific strains clinically proven. That might be it.
     
  15. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    Kefir actually will not work. It is made of different strains and these strains are not not natural to the body's gut flora. I do not recommend Kefir or Kombucha or any L strain probiotic at all.

    i am actually saying that if you take care of your gut flora properly then methylation wud be a non event or non existent bcos your gut flora wud naturally already be producing the necessary vitamins to resolve that pathway.

    I tested positive for the mthfr polymorphism but methylation was nvr really an issue for me as long as I was on certain strains of probiotics and their yogurt. For a very long time I nvr knew why.
     
  16. prioris

    prioris

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    Did the participants ever have ME/CFIDS in the first place. Did they get themselves tested for the ciguatoxin for confirmation

    methylation does not address the ciguatoxin problem. period.

    i also remember the 25% were short term results and poll done once. As i remember the poll was not done again many years later. I suspect probably because it was a large failure.

    as i remember many got a lot worse due to the treatment. i got impression many were demoralized having wasted so much time.

    methylation and any other treatment which doesn't treat the disease as an infection and doesn't address the ciguatoxin issue is a dead end

    even if the microbe which causes ciguatoxin addressed then the poison which sticks to sites on the body may have to be dealt with by removal from the body with a herb or something. i think just removing the toxin from our body will make us healthier.

    the octopus bush is used to treat people with shellfish ciguatoxin poisoning in pacific. the herb is unavailable online. it may be a good project for someone younger to try to acquire the seeds and grow some. maybe it will neutralize the symptoms. maybe sell it and make money to boot. rosmaric acid is one property of the octopus bush but i think there are other things in it that haven't been deciphered yet that are needed. acquiring the seeds from the australian botanical societies would be the main hurdle to get things rolling.

    another possible better avenue is if someone has relatives or friends in pacific islands who can contact medical people or foot doctors who have access to the herb. one needs to get the dosage used also. if it cost money, i will help pay for it.

    one needs to know the side effects also. the ciguatoxin treatments i have heard about in the past have had very bad side effects.

    if side effects are bad then it isn't a practical vehicle. we'd have to wait for the specific extracts of plant responsible for removal of the ciguatoxin to become available which would be the most desirable in terms of treatment.
     
  17. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Undcvr, interesting theory that of yours. Of course, now I want to try your yougurt. Will do when I can. ;)

    PD: You got the Antichrist post number!
     
  18. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    I have the antichrist what what ??
     
  19. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    HAHA you had 666 posts/messages. :devil:
     
  20. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Senior Member

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    Beyond likes this.

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