The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
Simon McGrath concludes his blog about the remarkable Prof George Davey Smith's smart ideas for understanding diseases, which may soon be applied to ME/CFS.
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Powerful start to Freddd protocol! Any thoughts on moving forward

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Leon, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Leon

    Leon

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    Hi,

    For two weeks, I've been taking 800mcg of AdCb and 250mg L-carntinine and 250mg ALCAT. I experienced a bit of need for more K+ and take 200mg.

    Today, I started 600mcg of MCb with 100mcg of methylfolate an hour before. While the MCb was dissolving, I started to experience a runny nose, sneezing, nausea and cracking/eczema on my hands. I wonder if this is folate insufficiency? I took another 100mcg of Mfolate 4 hours later and a further 100mcg just now. I plan on taking a further 100mcg in four hours. This would be 400mcg with the 160-300mcg of B12 absorbed. Is this perhaps too little? If so, would it be a good idea to try 100mcg every to see when the runny nose stops, etc, or perhaps just from now on start taking 200mcg every 4 hours instead. It strikes me that if 100mcg didn't work at the time of the MCb then clearly any dose on the half-life needs to be well above 100mcg, e.g. 200mcg x 4 daily.

    I am putting on about 3-4Ibs a week at the moment. I look a little bloated around my stomach, which might be another sign of folate insufficiency. After 300mcg total folate today, I'm finding I'm urinating a fair bit more.

    Also, I'm quite astounded by how "bright" everything is, and how loud and abrupt everything is. I can cope with the feeling of being stun gunned, mostly because I feel quite euphoric as well!

    So, moving forward, assuming that I'm not getting enough Mfolate, is the best course to increase that until the running nose, etc., stops; watch for increased need for K+ over the next couple of days; titrate up the B12 only when the anxiety subsides; and then address any K+/Mfolate deficiencies this causes?

    Incidentally, might the nausea be from the Mfolate? I have a weak stomach. Can it be taken with food?

    Thanks a lot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
    helen1 likes this.
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Until more expericed members chime in, my take on your reactions are:

    It seems you are doing it backwards according to the several methylation guides and summaries linked in my sig.
    To me it sounds like lack of co-factors (esp. B complex)
    Probably to some extent yes
    You are having an increasing need for magnesium and bicarbonate (see my link to "uric acid")
    This is a sudden raise in dopamine/norepinephrine and serotonin. I don't think you will be able to cope well with too much dopamin/norepinephrine due to double +/+COMT (my husband has this as well), and might experience rage bouts and/or nerve inflammation. @picante 's husband gets a negative feedback from this and stops producing dopamine/norepinephrine.

    The running nose can also be from a rapid toxin release from the liver, you need something to bind that - charcoal? it might bind the bad and the good as well.

    Folate can be taken with food, but nausea is from the liver. There also is a link in my sig called "the liver" so you can see where methylation fits in a bigger context.

    Last but not least, since you are +/+CBS, there is a new recommendation by dr Ben Lynch regarding this pathway:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...h-preventing-methylfolate-side-effects.34025/

    Someone who tried it run into B2 deficiency, so this is something to watch out for.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  3. Leon

    Leon

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    Thanks @Gondwanaland.

    Today, I upped my methylfolate first dose to 200mcg, and the runny nose came on again within 10-15mins, and I also felt dizzy, headachey and itchy. I hadn't even taken the MB12. Might it be low MB12 that is my problem rather than mfolate? When I tested my mfolate was low, but in range. But I'm MTRR ++. I wonder if I'm not one of those who needs high mfolate? I've got 1200mcg of MB12 under my lips now. I was thinking of dropping back to 400mcg / day of methylfolate to see if this new ratio improves.

    Any help greatly received.

    @Freddd
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    @Leon - I'm also +/+ for MTRR A66G, but I don't tolerate methylB12 for more than a day or two. But I do great even with very high doses of hydroxoB12, either sublingual or injected into the muscle.

    Some people just don't handle methylB12 well, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to figure it out based on SNPs.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Sometimes, not always, when I increased Mfolate, I got these sort of histamine reactions. A number of times I was distinctly euphoric, speedy. I found that if I put a 1mg MB12 in my gum, the symptoms would resolve quite quickly. Others use B3 to dampen the effects. So to me, the things I've put in bold sound like *high* folate, not deficiency. For me, deficiency symptoms were primarily acne/pimples, rash on head, hair loss.

    Re nausea: I now take my folate the same way as B12: putting tablet or emptying capsule into my gum or under tongue. I was able to reduce my folate needs by 2/3 when I switched to this method. It might help your nausea.
     
    Leon likes this.
  6. Leon

    Leon

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    Thanks guys.

    @ahmo - this is really interesting, and helpful, thank you. After the 200mcg mfolate, I had 1200mcg of MB12 under my lips and the symptoms went away. I've been fine without more mfolate all day.

    I've gone back to my methylation panel results. My mfolate is in range, but very low, so I may want to wait until methylation kicks in with MB12 to ramp up mfolate, as needed. I'm a bit flat tonight so maybe I'll try 1200mcg tomorrow in divided doses to reduce the methyl donor "kick", and keep an eye out for low folate. I'm sure, like you, keeping courgettes and high folinic acid foods out will help.

    @Valentijn - the SNPs are tricky, and sometimes misleading, aren't they. I was told my CBS would undermine attempts to get the methionine cycle going, and yet my sulfur levels haven't gone above 800 once on a dipstick test in 18 month. With COMT, I was told I wouldn't cope with any methyl donors, and yet 200mg of SAMe, 1200mcg of MB12, 500mg of L-carnitine is no worse than the come down I get from a strong cup of coffee. I didn't get any effect from HB12 when I tried it, but you do, notwithstanding the MTRR. Recovery from CFS/ME is having the confidence to be a work in progress, it seems to me, even when things get difficult, and experience goes against the grain.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
    whodathunkit, ahmo and Valentijn like this.
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    :thumbsup::)
     
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  8. Leon

    Leon

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    @Valentijn - I was curious how you knew MB12 wasn't working for you? I'm pushing on but I've had a headache for two days and generally feel malaise. I wake up feeling a bit 'drunk'. It's not clear whether this is detox or too many methyl donors. But I don't feel at all stimulated, and I have no mood changes.

    Thanks!
     
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    I felt jittery, edgy, and irritable. Potassium didn't help.

    I tried it a few times, and got the same effect each time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    Leon likes this.
  10. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    "Headache & malaise" and "jittery, edgy, and irritable" is mostly carnitine for me.

    I've just worked my way up to just under one milligram of carnitine because of having had this problem, & having to start again from scratch, very low.

    Just my 2c - I'm not saying it's the same cause for you.
     
  11. Leon

    Leon

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    @Johnmac - it's a good point. I did at the beginning notice malaise and irritability, etc., from the carnitine, but it subsided when I reduced the dose.

    Interestingly, I found yesterday that my "detox"-like symptoms abated when I took 50mg of mfolate with the B12. They came back after about 4-5 hours (just outside the half-life of the folate) and went again with another 50mg at 4pm. Today, 50mg hasn't cracked it completely, so this might mean I need to go slightly higher on the mfolate.

    I have been very skeptical of the idea that B12 induced detox might be "detox"; but the impact of a small amount - not enough to again fall into the too much category - of mfolate did do the trick. I was out in the garden sawing wood at one stage. The difference was stark and welcome.
     

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