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Powdered oxymatrine more potent than tablets?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Hip, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Powdered Oxymatrine (in Capsules) More Potent Than Oxymatrine in a Tablet?

    Powdered oxymatrine seems to be more potent than oxymatrine tablets, according to an account I received from one user.

    This may be because powdered oxymatrine is better absorbed in the gut than a solid tablet of oxymatrine.

    The oral bioavailability of oxymatrine is very low anyway (ref: here), so it is important to try to maximize the absorption of oxymatrine as much as possible.



    The "Dizziness Test" May Demonstrate That Powered Oxymatrine is Better Absorbed than Oxymatrine Tablets

    You can perform a test yourself indicating that powered oxymatrine is better absorbed than oxymatrine tablets: a "dizziness test".

    If you crush your regular oxymatrine tablet into a fine powder, and then swallow this power with some water (it tastes yuk!), or preferably put the powder into an empty capsule and swallow that (so that you don't have to taste the oxymatrine), you will likely find that you get mild dizziness symptoms within an hour. You'll probably find this mild dizziness does not appear when you take oxymatrine as a tablet, but this dizziness will appear when you take same amount of oxymatrine as a fine powder.

    This would appear to demonstrate that powdered oxymatrine is better absorbed than oxymatrine tablets, because dizziness is a known side effect of higher doses of oxymatrine.


    (EDIT: note however that another interpretation of this "dizziness test" is that with the powdered oxymatrine, you get the whole dose absorbing very quickly, leading to high transient blood levels and the dizziness symptom; but with the tablet, the absorption is slower, so you don't get such high transient blood levels, and this may be why you don't get the dizziness so much with tablets).



    Dr Chia's Studies on Oxymatrine for ME/CFS

    Dr John Chia reported he obtained good results with oxymatrine tablets in about 25% of the ME/CFS patients that took them (with another 25% of his patients getting some mild improvements, and the remaining 50% getting no improvements with oxymatrine).

    Could it be that the patients who did not respond to oxymatrine simply had problems with absorbing oxymatrine in the gut? If these non-responders tried powdered oxymatrine in capsules instead of oxymatrine tablets, then they might also obtain benefits from oxymatrine.

    Since ME/CFS patients often have weak digestion, this may make absorption of solid oxymatrine tablets even harder, but powdered oxymatrine in capsules may be easier to digest. So if you have tried oxymatrine tablets and obtained little effect from them, consider trying powdered oxymatrine in capsules.

    It may also be an idea to take stomach acid boosting supplements (like betaine HCl) at the same time as taking oxymatrine, as many ME/CFS patients have low stomach acid levels, and this can result in inefficient absorption of supplements and nutrients.

    Note that people who have strong reactions to oxymatrine should be careful when trying powdered oxymatrine, as you will be absorbing a higher dose.

    Incidentally, if the mild dizziness symptoms of powdered oxymatrine are a concern, just take the oxymatrine before bed, and you won't notice the mild dizziness as you fall asleep. The herb ginger is also good at eliminating dizziness, and 5 to 10 drops of lemon (Citrus limonum) essential oil (diluted in 15 ml of cooking oil) is a very powerful blocker of dizziness and nausea symptoms (lemon essential oil is a potent 5-HT3 antagonist, and this is how it eliminates nausea).



    Some Sources for Oxymatrine

    White Tiger brand oxymatrine tablets, containing 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet, can be found here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

    Equilibrant (Dr Chia's brand) oxymatrine tablets are available here.

    Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules containing 300 mg of oxymatrine powder per capsule are available here: 1, 2, 3, 4.

    Note that Dr Chia says oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders.


    More info on Dr Chia's research on oxymatrine for ME/CFS given in this post.


    Thanks go to wjrf for bringing this info about powdered oxymatrine to my attention.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
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  2. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Is there a way to know if we have autoimmune tendencies? Don't some consider CFS to possibly be autoimmune? Is this an immune modulator, or booster? So many questions I have, sorry!
     
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    "Autoimmune tendency means a strong family history of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, autoimmune thyroiditis (especially Graves disease), multiple sclerosis, and if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA." Ref: here.

    Nobody really knows for sure how oxymatrine works, but it is most likely a Th2 > Th1 immunomodulator.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Just found a study (see below) showing that the oral bioavailability of oxymatrine in dogs is quite low, around 19%.

    I do wonder whether the non-responders to oxymatrine might just be individuals who don't absorb enough oxymatrine from their guts. Injectable forms of oxymatrine are on sale in China, such as on this website here. Might non-responders to oral oxymatrine (I am one of them) do better on injectable oxymatrine?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  5. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    Any success with the powdered oxymartine @Hip?
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    No, and neither with transdermal oxymatrine. Because of oxymatrine's low oral bioavailability of 19%, I decided to try opening up the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules, dissolving the oxymatrine powder therein into around 20 to 30 ml of water, and applying to the skin of my body, where it should be absorbed transdermally.

    Compounds with a molecular weight lower than around 500 daltons are absorbed transdermally (ref: here), and the molecular weight of oxymatrine is 264 daltons, so well below the 500 dalton limit.

    However, even using transdermal oxymatrine, it did not lead to any improvements in my ME/CFS. But note that only 25% of ME/CFS patients trying oxymatrine get a good response, according to Dr Chia's research, so I may just be a non responder to oxymatrine.
     
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  7. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    @Hip

    Interesting, what about the injectable version?
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Never tried that.
     
  9. Theodore

    Theodore Senior Member

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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Houttuynia cordata (Yu Xing Cao) is effective against enterovirus 71, but the enteroviruses associated with ME/CFS are different enteroviruses, namely coxsackievirus B (CVB) and echovirus (EV), and Houttuynia cordata may not work for CVB and EV.

    At lot of time, herbal antivirals are very specific in the type of enteroviruses they can target: they may work against one type of enterovirus, but not another. Although sometimes you get a herbal antiviral that has broad spectrum anti-enterovirus activity. You can see in my list of anti-enterovirus herbs and drugs that the viral targets are quite specific.

    Although interestingly, Houttuynia cordata does fight the intracellular component of various infections, including dengue virus, Salmonella, and Bartonella. I tried 1 heaped teaspoon of Houttuynia cordata for 10 days, but did not notice much.
     
  11. Theodore

    Theodore Senior Member

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  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Check my list of antiviral drugs nad herbs for enterovirus; those herbs are already in the list.
     
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  13. Theodore

    Theodore Senior Member

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    Right, thank you.

    I guess you did try them (or the most potent ones). Could you rule out an active enterovirus in your case then?
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am still in the process of trying these. My viral tests showed I have high titers (active infection) with coxsackievirus B4, so that is the virus I want to target.
     
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  15. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    Sublingual is probably a good idea. I know several drugs that I didn't respond to orally that I did sublingually. 200 mg probably wont fully absorb though.
     
  16. consuegra

    consuegra Senior Member

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    What about trying
    liposomalized oxymatrine?

    Chris
     
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