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POTASSIUM SUPPLEMENTS made me ill

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Dreambirdie, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi Lolasana, from what i gather from Rich he suggests that MB12 alone can cause excitotoxicity if dose is too high. I had symptoms of excitotoxicity when i first started injecting MB12 at 500mcg a day so i reduced to 250mcg every other day for 3 months, i have recently upped it to 300mcg a day. I dont take any of the co factors at the moment. Fredd on the other hand describes these symptoms as start up and says you mustnt reduce your dose and must push through - he says this is not excitotoxicity.

    For me persoanlly i know my body and i never like to push through anything - doing this in the past has made me very ill. I always back off and slow down. Rich suggests switching to Hydroxy and trying liposomal Glutathione, although of course Fredd says no one should take Glutathione (i dont know why)
    I think its a matter of choosing which approach you prefer/trust/works for you.
    All the best, Justy.
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Mercury is not the only heavy metal that can cause symptoms. In my case, I've had arsenic, lead, uranium and thallium show up in my fecal metals tests at high levels. You are lucky if you do not have a toxic load of these. They can interfere with nutrient absorption, block hormone receptor sites, and cause some serious disturbances in all the major systems of the body. The active B12s triggered a huge heavy metal mobilization for me back in October of 2009. Since then I have used mostly the SMP, with occasional smidges of MB12.


    These might be a questions that Rich could answer. I am not very knowledgeable on biochemistry.

    Unfortunately, I am very familiar with excito toxicity. :rolleyes: And glutathione has sometimes helped, though the kind I used was transdermal.
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi aquarius girl--

    Just curious what lab does the Exatest, and if you can order one w/o a doctor's request?

    I have had low magnesium in the past, which in my case causes me to have PVCs (premature ventricular contractions). I began using magnesium oil (Ancient Minerals brand), which helped me to get enough (without having to deal with the diarrhea that often came with oral mag.) to keep the PVCs mostly under control.

    Interesting that your potassium was in range w/o any supplementation. You must get enough of it in your diet.
  4. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I agree with Rich. I have definitely had excito-toxicity from the MB12, and have also had it from metafolin in combination with HB12, during an experiment just a couple weeks ago.



    I hear you, Justy! Pushing through is not an option for me either. It stresses my body too much and almost always causes me to have setbacks, even crashes. I can't afford that.

    Whenever I have tried any of the supps on the active B12 protocol, I end up in a nasty tailspin. Even the supps on the SMP are a challenge for me. I can only take them a couple times/week.

    I have to say that the transdermal glutathione has been enormously helpful for me. But because I have developed a sensitivity to the cream that they use, and am now breaking out in a rash that lasts about 2 weeks, I am going to have to try other options. Maybe the liposomal would work as well as the TD. I need to know more about it.
  5. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    I haven't tried Glutathione at all because of the absorption issues with it, interesting that transdermal helped you. I take all my minerals and iron as well in transdermal form - otherwise i just dont seem to absorb them. I think Sallyblooms uses liposomal Glutathione and likes it - i think its very expensive, i might give it a try though. My Glutathione levels where low on ablood test last year.
  6. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    --------------------------------------

    Some of the symptoms you describe can also be caused by folic acid. If you happened to have the 4 packets of Emergen-C, that would have contained 50 mcg of folic acid --- certainly enough to set off those symptoms in me---And it took me about two weeks to fully recover from them....When I have potassium issues, the recovery period always seems shorter for that.

    I really do prefer coconut water above all other things for potassium. It does not bother my stomach like potassium gluconate can. I have not even tried potassium citrate, and did so-so on potassium chloride. Potassium (Amino Acid ) Chelate seems to work well if I have to take it in a supplement.

    The symptoms you describe - I had after blood loss, so I tried potassium and was able to fix it........but I only had the potassium drop after blood loss after methylation was more up and running than before. Before, I merely stayed tired from the blood loss, and not being able to make red blood cells as quickly as I needed to for replacement.

    I have been avoiding folic acid because of those very symptoms, but natural food folates are not as problematic for me as folic acid.

    I had to stop taking my favorite multivitamin because it contains folic acid.
  7. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    The scary thing about too much Potassium and side effects is sometimes it cannot be reversed. I am VERY careful, only take a little KDur for my kidney stones.
  8. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi RD--

    I have used Emergen-C regularly for at least 3 years, anywhere from 3-6 packs/day. It is not an issue for me, and has NEVER caused the kind of symptoms I had on Friday morning. The symptoms were set off when I stopped the Emergen-C for a day and used the potassium citrate instead of it. Coconut water is a great source of potassium and I use it as well, but it's also much more expensive.

    I am not convinced that I have any problems with folic acid. I know that has become a popular subject of discussion around here lately. But after messing with my usual routine, and hurting myself as a result of that, I'll stick to what has worked best for me.
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I am not sure if this is true...? I wouldn't think that one overdose of potassium would be that damaging, though it does concern me when I hear about people taking 1500-2000 mg/day for weeks at a time or longer. I personally would never take that much.
  10. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    wasn't sure if the Emergen-C was taken or missed..........

    Thanks for the heads up on potassium citrate.......definitely stick with what works.

    I have had a few funky episodes like that.........sometimes just a really bad frame of mind will come over me.......usually in the morning.......sometimes accompanied by nausea, sometimes not.

    These days, more and more, I titrate up on anything new........darn sensitivities.

    After a couple of Stevens Johnson Syndrome reactions, drug allergies, hives to drugs, I tend to go to vitamins more and more, too.

    I slowly titrated up on the potassium chelate, and have done better on that, but if emergen-C works, that is great.
  11. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Doesn't have to be one dose. I have talked to pharmacists and it can be dangerous. If there is a chance of a problem being irreversable is scary.
  12. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    Most people with CFS have a large amount of cells dying off all the time due to superoxide damage to mitochondria. As these cells die off they release their potassium into the blood stream and raise K levels.

    The rate of cell die off will vary depending on the amount of inflammation present at any one time ,so K levels could be up and down all the time and supplementing could take them above recommended K levels.

    I had the Cell DNA test done by Dr Myhill after a crash, and the rate of cells dying off was desribed on the report as approaching the level of someone on chemotherapy.

    The rate of new cell replacement and hence the amount this will reduce K levels will depend not only on the rate of methylation, but also how much RNA you have available to help create new cells.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/entr...ancer-Traced-to-a-Shortage-of-DNA-Spare-Parts
    LaurieL and dannybex like this.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Justy,

    Excitotoxicity has a very specific meaning and mb12 does not casue it. It protects the neurons from some forms of it, such as glutatmate excitotoxicity. The nerves "waking up" are quite noticable and it is not a toxic event. Mb12 has no known toxicity level. People who's nerves have shut down for decades (me included) loose sight of what is "normal", like the song says "been down so long it seems like up to me". I have walked this path and have actually found my way though the mine field to be healed. I'm not basing it on a theory that should work for a few people. There are plenty of things one must watch for, low potassium is the most seriously dangerous. Low folate is very common. Then there are lots and lots of phantoms assigned to the nervous system waking up. When it wakes up it lets you know. People have assigned wild results to 10-100mcg of mb12. It isn't magic. The methyl groups supplied by 10-100mcg of mb12 are not enough to do much of anything but as a vitamin waking up the nervous system it does a lot.

    At least one person has found that glutahtione "good effect" "relieves" the wakeup effect of Metafolin and mb12 and thereby provides relief. I find that glutathione relieves neurological pain by numbing out the nerves and eventually damaging them. You can reduce the dose or anything you want. If you want your nervous system to heal you need to wake it up and get it functioning. That means putting up with some of the unpleasant feelings that occur when formerly numbed or damaged nerves start functioning again.

    The active b12 protcol is about using ones brain and intellegence. It needs to be used to recognize real problems and correct them and to distinguish hypothetical problems from real ones. If one is jumping in a dozen directions at once reponding to all the hypothetical problems they don't normally get well. As mb12 has been shown to have dose related healing responses, more produces faster healing than less. More gets through the startup things faster than less. The challange is to reverse as much neurological damage as possible before it becomes permanent. Teasing the damage along prolongs the damage making it more likely to be permanent. Everybody has the choice in how to approach that using whatever protocol or hydrid protocol they choose. As not everybody here as experienced temporary damage becoming permanent while dithering around as I did not everybody is aware of the urgency.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I would like to suggest people remember why were are even discussing potassium. The ONLY reason we are discussing the supplementation of potassium is to reverese induced deficiencies by the startup of methylation. This is apparant with both mb12 and hycbl, Metafolin and sometimes folic and/or folinic acid. I'm not suggesting the supplementing of potassium without having symptoms. Further to say that a single dose of poassium equivelent to 1/3 of a days MDR could cause permanent damage is ridiculous. Watch put for those killer bannanas and veggies. Use some common sense. There is a lot of fear feeding off itself here.
    madietodd likes this.
  15. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I called the lab. The woman says the test reflects the last 4 days of the cell's life....I had been supplementing potassium..so maybe it means that my body was using the potassium. retaining it, but not the mag.

    Obviously if you want a baseline.. you are gonna need to be off any kind of supplementation for some time prior. (check w/the lab for specifics.) Google Exatest for info. The lab is in Oregon.

    Did not realise this going in to it.

    I knew I couldn't be getting enof potassium from my diet. My diet sucks. So I assume its gotta be the supplements..in other words. maybe the supplementation is working ..., but I'll probably run another test off of supplements to see where I am at, what my baseline is, or what my potassium is like when I'm not supplementing.

    $$$

    Wouldn't it be nice if they gave discounts for bulk ordering ?!!
  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Freddd---

    The comment I've bolded is offensive to me, as is the implication that the active protocol that you profess you be the answer to our "real problems" is the only way to fly, and that anyone who is not on board with you on that is just "dithering around" and on the verge of "permanently damaging" themselves.

    Where do get the idea that you are qualified to diagnose and recommend treatments for PWME? You have NO knowledge of our complete medical histories. You have NO clinical experience as a health care professional. You are a systems analyst, NOT a doctor, NOT a researcher. And yet you repeatedly foist your theory of the "active protocol" upon all of us, even those of us who are not interested in hearing any more about it, as if you know better than each of us what is best for each of us.

    IMO encouraging very ill and very hyper sensitive people to PUSH THROUGH methylation, reducing most if not all of their adverse effects to (what you call) "START-UP" reactions, and advising them that MORE is inevitably always better, is not using one's brain and intelligence. That would require serious in depth investigation of each individual's case history, and an assessment based on each individual's needs and tolerances as to which protocol, which supplements, and how many of each would be appropriate for each.

    Imposing protocols without those consideration is practicing medicine without a license.
    illsince1977, justy, dannybex and 3 others like this.
  17. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    What about all the people using 'nosalt' as their salt substitute? Some probably get an awful lot of potassium salt that way and yet we don't hear about hyperkalemia risk from using a salt substitute.

    I suspect there is more going on in any one event, such as Dreambirdie's feeling unwell after taking more potassium, than we can know or analyze in a public forum like this. Without chemistries, blood tests, this is all speculation. Probably she took too much potassium, but using tablets the amount you take is hard to regulate...

    Personally, I stopped using the potassium tablets because they are fixed amount, and I can't adjust that well enough. How much do you get from a tablet? How well is it formulated, how is it assimilated? Instead I use potassium salt, which allows me to use very tiny amounts if I want. This helped me figure out what level of potassium was the right 'balance' for my situation (it is about 1/16th of a tsp of potassium salt, 2x daily, in case anyone wonders). How to calculate the balance with potassium salt? Take a tiny bit when you have symptoms that you suspect may be due to low potassium, and see how that feels. Then take more, or less, titrate, etc. I get an almost immediate response to potassium salt when I take a tiny bit. But I think taking potassium tablets is very risky, I would rather take a tiny bit of the salt, and if that is not enough, take a little more. Also, I usually take some sea salt along with any potassium, to make sure the body can keep a balance.

    Fred - due to the possible risks of taking too much or too little potassium, wouldn't people be better off to use potassium salt, where they can regulate the exact amount, rather than potassium tablets?
  18. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    For people's info, 1 standard teaspoon of pure potassium chloride is roughly the RDA of potassium.
    dannybex likes this.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dreambirdies,

    For somebody who has asked me not to address them you are taking a stance in addressing me that is going to be addressed anyway. I am not and was not directing this to you at all. I was addressing the "use of intelligence" in general was directed and has been, as meaning judgenent and discretion, to make choices. I was trying to say that there is not one fixed protocol of inderterminant numbers. A person has to use their intelliigence to determine if they are having a low potassium probelm because nobody can tell them that. They have to use their ilntellegence becasue nobody can tell them how much potassium to take. They have to use their judgement in determining how much is enough or too much. Ultimately each person has to be responsible for how much of what they takde. There is no ONE SIZE FITS ALL set of doses or anything. So when people keep asking for specific numbers it's an impossible question to answer, one that at best gets lots of ranges and conditionals.

    You may choose to be offended that I suggest that people use their intellegence, that's your choice. When I point put possible risks and the stakes of neurological damage that I and,many others are playing for, neurological damage they may not even be aware that they have, that is worsening while they do this and that and other things not addressing the damage or even bring it to a halt if possible, they don't have to listem to me. I wish somebody had been willing and able to tell me and my doctor about the neurological damage I was undergoing in the 80s and 90s and had a solution. I found found a solution just ahead of the wheelchair. These neurological problems damage us emotionally, coginitively, damaging the very intelligence that we need to solve the problem.

    There is a lot of fear mongering going on. People seem to want nice juicy fears to work with. Well fear of permanent neurological damage ought to be worth some consideration. Fear mongering had not recogized the potassium problem. Fear mongering had not recognized the paradoxical folate deficiency. The symptoms were readily recognized and called other things that provoked fear and avoidance instead of a problem to be solved. This left the problems in place and getting worse because the causes of the fears that were being worked were not the actual casues it wasn't productive. I have said before and I'll say it again, there are layers upon layers of problems to be worked through. Methylation is ONE SMALL LAYER. Induced low folate was another with enough symptoms to get in the way that other things could not be seen. Paradoxical folate deficiency and induced folate deficiency is another. When those are peeled back there are a whole lot of neurological problems staring us in the face. Theses are of various types, some functiontional, some from damage.


    And yet you repeatedly foist your theory of the "active protocol" upon all of us, even those of us who are not interested in hearing any more about it, as if you know better than each of us what is best for each of us.

    I wasn't addressing you. And while you may not want to hear more there are plenty who do who appear too intimidated to hold that conversation on the open board and so PM me or email me.

    I realize that it may not be populer to point out the hazards of glutathione and the potential of permanent neuroloigcal damage by it, which I have experienced from it, because it is a popular item at the moment. I would esitmate that it is legitamately far more dangerous for far more people than too much potassium is relaistically dangerous for those who are exhibiting low potassium symptoms. That is my opinion. Others may, using their intellegence may consider the evidence on all counts and decide whatever they decide.

    As far as "dithering around" that can mean all sorts of things, so you are welcome to be offended if you desire. Some people are having increasing neurological damage some of which is worsening to the point of permanence each day it isn't treated. The clock is ticking. Doing this and that around the edges and never getting at the heart of the matter, neurological damage, could literally be called dithering. As that appears to be a point of ignorance some education could help. Ignorance is temporary and correctable. Everybody is ignorant about some things. Healing the neurology or even stopping the damage is a lot more difficult than restarting a partial methylation block and that alone is rarely enough.
  20. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    All I'm suggesting freddd is that when you suggest people supplement potassium you also provide warnings about it's use if kidney problems may be present and that people should talk to a doctor in this situation. It's on the nosalt label, it's a valid warning, just like you warn people of the risks of low potassium. That is common sense, given you aren't a doctor and you are effectively treating people you have done no diagnostic testing on.
    leela, Merry, justy and 5 others like this.

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