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Post your NutrEval Krebs Cycle Results...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, May 12, 2013.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Mine is the same...in fact, only AKG is 'normal', when most of the others are low, or basically missing. After my OATS test is done I'm going to immediately start taking the "Krebs Cycle Chelates" that Catseye recommended. That may not get to the core of the problem, but may help somewhat...

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ve-a-big-picture-theory.386/page-3#post-10898
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Adenosyl cobalamin is indeed hypothesized to reduce production of peroxynitrite from nitric oxide synthase, if I recall the Gorilla paper correctly. First, this is only tentative at this point: if true its very interesting though. Second, it reduces production of peroxynitrite via NOS by establishing normal NO production, but not necessarily all production of peroxynitrite is stopped because it can be made from superoxide from immune cells or the mitochondria, in combination with NO. I think cobalamins in general have an anti-peroxynitrite effect though, so it should destroy peroxynitrite. The question is then does the cobalamin survive? I don't recall. I think it might be destroyed, and irrecoverable. So in this role it can become depleted. Now if it is mopping up peroxynitrite from the mitochondria or NOS, then there will be less adenosyl cobalamin, and if the research is right then this will mean more peroxynitrite production from NOS. Its a vicious circle, exactly the kind of thing I have been discussing for abound 15 years, and the kind of thing that the Peroxynitrite Hypothesis is built on.
    Sidereal and Lotus97 like this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So there's still the gluten issue to worry about with GliSODin (in which case Biotec would be a better option), but apparently GliSODin doesn't need to be enteric coated like other sources of SOD:
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've gone over the methylation study that Rich and Dr. Nathan did in 2009 and it seems that in many ways it was a success (including a decrease in various symptoms reported) and while it's true that the GSH/oxidized glutathione ratio improved, the oxidized glutathione level didn't go down at all.
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf
    [​IMG]

    I wasn't sure how to interpret this, until I stumbled onto a conversation between Rich and Ema where he was interpreting her methylation results. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but due to the results of both Rich's protocol and Freddd's protocol (which Ema was doing) it seems to suggest that methylation alone isn't going to solve all of the problems (ie oxidative stress). I'm not sure why Rich said the thing about homocysteine, because the homocysteine in the study using his protocol didn't go down either (?) I think I misread what Rich said. It sounds like SAH being high is a good thing. Actually, I reread it again and now I'm not sure. Could someone who understands this explain what's going on? Either post in this thread or send me a private message so this thread doesn't go off topic
    Skyline likes this.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    The Biotec company seems to have a half dozen variations on the same product. I'm just going to try the same one that worked for Catseye.
  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I thought this was interesting...how NADH is critical for several parts of the krebs cycle, but too much can slow it down:

    NADH inhibits isocitrate DH (product inhibition). NADH product inhibition provides control over three steps in the Kreb's cycle. Since there are only 4 controlled steps in Kreb's, NADH is an important control mechanism. This step is also controlled (enhanced) by increased ADP and calcium.
    This is a pretty big and important step. The α-ketoglutarate DH complex acts upon α-ketoglutarate ultimately forming Succinyl CoA. This enzyme complex is described in fair detail in the pyruvate to acetyl CoA step. However, it should be noted that the α-ketoglutarate DH complex is just one of a family of enzymes that oxidatively decarboxylate these a-keto acids. There is an oxidative decarboxylation occuring here (the 2nd carbon from the acetyl entering the Kreb's). In other words, CO2 is released. CoASH is needed and NADH is also produced. Some amino acids (BCAA's) and the 3-carbon molecule remaining after beta oxidation of odd chain fatty acids enter the Kreb's Cycle at this step by being acted upon by this enzyme complex.
    NADH inhibits this enzyme complex (as described previously). As NADH concentrations increase, the Kreb's cycle slows down.

    http://drchadedwards.com/244/energy-production-through-the-krebs-cycle/

    Not quite sure how it relates to those of us (dbkita) who show a huge drop from AKA to succinic...?
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The pic is kind of small, but there is a drop off after isocitric acid, and succinic acid.

    The cobalamins in the Thorne are virtually worthless because it's taken through the stomach (I'm taking a couple of Thorne's too, for the methylfolate, and general micronutrient support.)

    How many mcg do you figure 0.1ml mB12 is?
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I'm taking vitamin E succinate (Dry E). I don't know if that would support succinic acid or not? It was something recommended on Heartfixer.
  10. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I have no idea, but it's worth to investigate. Thanks for sharing.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If a supplement increases ATP and/or improves mitochondrial function does that automatically mean it's supporting Krebs?
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    There was some information about ROS (reactive oxygen species) in Stephen Buhner's book, Healing Lyme, but it looks like increased ROS is common in many (all?) types of infections.
  13. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    The "Krebs Cycle Chelates" by Enzymedica have all the 'acids'. From their website:

    "Chelated with citrate, fumarate, malate, succinate, and alpha ketoglutarate.
    The bio-active minerals chelated to these Krebs cycle intermediates, are better absorbed and utilized. These intermediates, or organic acids, are responsible for energy production within every cell of the body."
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I think so, and also yes, ROS is common with most illness, esp chronic illness.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I assume you mean Enzymatic Therapy (not Enzymedica). I contacted them about this to find out how much of each intermediate is in the formula and this is what they told me:
    lol, thanks, but no thanks. I despise proprietary blends. Citrate is the cheapest so I wouldn't be surprised if it was mostly that. I was quite amused that the person tried to sell me another product. Very clever naming it "Pearls". What woman doesn't want pearls?:D
    caledonia
    Succinic acid/succinate is hard to find. I did find two muli vitamins with succinate and the other Krebs intermediates, but I don't know if it's a high enough amount to be helpful. They do specify the exact amount of each nutrient though which is nice. This first one is out of stock so I don't know where to buy it
    http://www.pureformulas.com/lifegua...0-tablets-by-perque.html#sthash.HgGfB4Zp.dpbs
    Even though this second one is called Multi Two, the amounts listed are for 2 tablets or 4 capsules (kind of confusing)
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/two.html
    There's also a magnesium/glycine/vitamin C supplement with Krebs chelates:
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/hpdspec/tri.html
    Valentijn likes this.
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If I'm already taking 625 mg of niacinamide would I benefit from taking NADH in addition? The reason I'm taking such a high dose is to slow down methylation. There's also some information about niacinamide being anti-inflammatory (although dbkita and Adreno seemed a bit skeptical at least compared to other anti-inflammatory supplements). Also, taking the non-coenzymated form of B vitamins is supposed to use up ATP, but do we really know if it's a significant amount?
  17. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I don't know how much MB12 I get from the injection, it was suggested by Dr Myhill to use daily because I felt better energy using it. I also take 1000 mcg MB12 in the form of sublingual lozenge.

    Genova's commentary on my MAP said I only had a medium need for MB12 at around 500 mcg daily but a high need for folates at 1200 mcg daily. However the last few days when I have taken the full amount I have been a bit lightheaded in the morning and then it has turned into a migraine type headache so think I will drop back by 400 mcg on the Folapro.

    So far its a month since I have been taking extra folate and MB12 but I haven't been any better stamina-wise wise but have slept better. I am fortunate in that I function probably about 50% of a healthy person of my age but do get quite a lot of neurological symptoms still.

    Thanks
    Pam
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Ancient thread I know, but I'm not sure if my brain is working better now or what, but I stumbled across this thread, and have a couple of new questions caledonia:

    So...were you chelating lead and mercury while you still had fillings?

    And if so, what or whose protocol did you use -- and how long did you chelate?

    Interesting about the cilantro. You know what you know who would say about that... :)
  19. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I am also SOD2 +/+ on at least a couple of SODs. Still tryig to find Rs#'s for a couple of SOD1's with no luch so far. I would like to understand more about the SOD2 impact. For instance for much of my life I worked through my physical issues but the last 5-6 years I just seemed to not be able to recover. Has your research implicated SOD2 and is the a way to support that polymorphism?
  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    My naturopath had me tested and had me doing chelation while I still had mercury fillings. I was doing a "kitchen sink" supplement called Chelex. I used like 1/8 of a pill twice a week and then eventually worked up to a whole pill I think, but still twice a week. I did this for 6 months.
    dannybex likes this.

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