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Post your NutrEval Krebs Cycle Results...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, May 12, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was actually quoting Catseye who seems to think taking Glisodin is a bad idea due to the gliadin. I don't have Celiac's (as far as I know), but I am avoiding gluten so I wanted to find out if it actually has enough gliadin to cause problems. Some people say that everyone needs to avoid even trace amounts of gluten, but I'm not sure if that's necessary or not. Energy Enzymes (and other Biotec products) don't have the gliadin so if someone is concerned then that would be better. There are other Biotec products with IsoSproutPlex and glutathione peroxidase that are cheaper than Extra Energy Enzymes so I don't know why it would be any better since it has the same ingredients.
    roxie60 likes this.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hmm, I take a lot of greens. I was just beginning to doubt whether "superfoods" are as great as some people claim...That reminds me, amla also has superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione peroxidase, and catalase.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So if I have a block at that point, then supplementing with AKG would be a bad idea? If so, then that sort of throws a wrench in my whole "kitchen sink" idea about taking a bunch of different supplements supporting Krebs rather than getting tested.
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Lotus97, or you could add electron transport chain support to the shotgun protocol.

    However in all of these my rule 22 comes into effect: the lemon rule. You have to test it to be sure. It might be the problem is indeed a Krebs problem, in which case general support will help.

    Testing could be a good idea though. Looking at Krebs without looking at the electron transport chain is like looking at only half the engine in a car to try to diagnose a fault. It might get you the answers, but you might miss something.

    In addition many of the toxins that damage Krebs cycle function also damage the electron transport chain, including oxidative stress.

    One additional point worth making is that Myhill's research suggests the problem might be nutrient transfer through the mitochondrial membrane. The inner workings might be fine, but the nutrients are simply not transfering in or out properly.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've heard electron transport chain mentioned once or twice before, but I have no idea what it is. You don't have to explain it if you don't feel like it, but at least point me in the right direction.

    Interesting that you mention oxidative stress because that term has been popping up in my research lately. Rich talks about oxidative stress a lot. I don't know much about this term either, but it seems significant. I do remember Rich saying that if you have a high amount of oxidative stress that will convert more GSH into oxidized glutathione (which isn't good).

    I'm not completely sure, but I think biotin gave me "start-up" when I tried increasing the dose a few months ago. I'm trying again now that I've been taking adenosylcobalamin and increased pantethine and some other supplements. I forget the reasons, but dbkita and Jeffrez said something about getting other things going before adding the biotin. The strange thing is that a year ago I was able to take 2000+ mcg without a problem. I almost wonder if it was a coincidence and I was wrong about the biotin causing problems a few months ago, but I'm not willing to take a high dose to test my theory.:ill:
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    The electron transport chain is where energetic chemicals from the mitochondrial (succinate and NADH) are actually used to make the body's energy currency: ATP. It is where oxygen is used, in other words where the fuel is actually burned to make energy. Its dependent on CoEnzyme Q10, and is sensitive to metallic poisons and oxidative stress.

    Oxidative stress refers to molecules that contain oxygen and are capable of damaging other molecules. Much of this is a byproduct of burning oxygen for fuel. Some is however better called nitrosative stress, which is typically a byproduct of oxidative stress but much more damaging, and the focus of Martin Pall's work.

    The relevent wikipedia entries are here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_transport_chain

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_stress

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_oxygen_species

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_nitrogen_species

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

    All this can be overwhelming at first. I recommend a good biology textbook, just go to the chapters on mitochondria and energy production. A good basic nursing textbook sometimes covers the same information.
    dannybex and Lotus97 like this.
  8. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Lotus97

    You may want to check out Dr Martin Pall's info. if you are interested in learning about oxidative stress.

    He has an interesting theory about oxidative stress that fits right in vitamin and mineral protocols we are trying to figure out.

    He has some interesting ideas on methylfolate, and it may work.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I first heard about Dr. Pall a few years ago from my dad who has MCS, but I couldn't understand all the technical jargon. It seems peroxynitrite is a big thing from what I'm hearing from others in these forums, but I didn't realize ONOO and oxidative stress were relative. It seems like everything is connected. Rich was just talking about how he learned from Dr. Pall that peroxynitrite causes methylfolate to be lost. BTW, I'm taking almost all the supplements in all of those protocols on Dr. Pall's site. I think I need to do something about Lyme. Rich was telling someone that that causes a lot of oxidative stress.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So methylfolate scavenges peroxynitrite, but peroxynitrite lowers methylfolate levels. So it's a contest of wills. Who will win? My mind is blown. I'm going to bed now.
  11. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    In Dr Pall's work, He proposes the disease process throws off peroxynititrite? and creates some kind of self sustaining vicious cycle that prevents us from healing. He believes the methyfolate, and other supplements, can be used to stop that vicious cycle.

    This peroxynitrite can lead to oxidative stress.

    I think the caffine contributes to that oxidative stress, excitoxcity or whatever(in my case).

    Sorry, can't remember much.

    Dr Pall had CFS I think and is recovered.
  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Martin Pall and I used to correspond a lot. I have read his book. Peroxynitrite is formed when nitric oxide combines with superoxide (from the electron transport chain), which is manufactured in the mitochondria. Some claim peroxynitrite may be the most dangerous free radical in the body. This is most dangerous when the mitochondria cannot control the superoxide and when nitric oxide is overproduced. Nitric oxide is a hormone signal, and is produced by the blood vessels to enable dilation, though I think it has other roles including in the brain.

    There is considerable secondary evidence that peroxynitrite is a problem in many disorders including ME. Unfortunately the model Pall is using still requires definitive evidence. There is no question he is right about the biochemisty: what is in doubt is what percentage of symptoms this might explain.

    What makes this complicated is that superoxide is also used by some immune cells to destroy pathogens. So immune activation can also lead to peroxynitrite production. Since this will often occur in blood vessels that might be producing nitric oxide, this may be a more pursuasive origin of peroxynitrite.

    In either case its a dangerous molecule. What mitochondrial peroxynitrite is most likely to do though is damage the mitochondria, including the Krebs cycle enzymes, the electron transport chain enzymes, and the mitochondrial membrane transporters.

    Jarod, do you have a link to methylfolate detoxing peroxynitrate? I know that methylcobalamin does, as indeed do hydroxocobalamin and even cyanocobalamin. I am less sure about adenosylcobalamin, but I presume it does too. I am however unsure about methylfolate.
    Lotus97 and dannybex like this.
  13. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    alex3619

    It may have been something i picked up in the book, which has been about 5 years...so i may have that wrong. :confused:

    He does show folic acid on this table though. Pretty sure there is more charts in the book describing the different supplements and how they can stop this process.
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Here it is...several places sell it:

    http://www.easylivinghealth.com/Intensive-Nutrition-SOD-Superoxide-Dismutase-8-ml.html

    There are also enteric coated SOD products at iherb and vitacost. Plus the "Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes" that Catseye felt/feels helped her so much. Too beat right now to find her post, but it's my recollection she talks about it in several of them.
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yes too much glycolysis is bad. But some cfs sufferers are high in lactic acid and others are low. I think most who are heavy with glycolysis when there are serious blocks in the Krebs cycle. So it is hard to draw a simple conclusion.
  16. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Manganese primarily. Also antioxidants. Make sure your copper is not too low while zinc to copper ratio is ok. When you say borderline hypoglycemic you mean like fasting glucose in the 60s?
  17. caledonia

    caledonia

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    From what I remember of my labs, I don't think it's quite that low. I'm mainly going from symptoms, which is I have to eat every 3-4 hours. The blood sugar drops in my brain before my stomach gets hungry, so I eat to fix my head, if that makes sense. I have to eat a balanced meal of protein, carbs and fat. If I just do an apple, for example, my brain will be unhappy in an hour or so, and I'll have to eat again (preferably with some protein) to fix it.
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    He says this: "Reacts with oxidants and therefore may be depleted due to the NO/ONOO- cycle." That does not necessarily mean it reacts with ONOO, though its a fair bet. It means folate is destroyed by oxidative stress, which we have plenty of. It does not however imply that folate can neutralize it - a lot of things react with reactive molecules only to become reactive themselves, like a chain reaction. However folate (not the same as folic acid) is needed to help cope with oxidative stress. Part of that is about interacting with tetrahydrobiopterin. Its important, but it wont directly deal with oxidative or nitrosative stress I think.
  19. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    So if one completely lacks succinate, what happens then? I assume that severely affects the electron transport chain?
    I have a good AKG score of 13 on nutreval but then succinic acid = <dl.
    I do respond fairly well to creatine monohydrate supplementation, maybe that means something.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I thought the whole point of the Gorilla paper was that adenosylcobalamin does reduce peroxynitrite. I didn't actually read it because I don't have the brainpower, but other people seemed to think it was significant.

    This is a recent post from Rich (Sept 2012). It's about Dr. Pall and his theories. He mentions the thing about methylfolate and peroxynitrite. He's just quoting Dr. Pall though in regards to the methylfolate reducing peroxynitrite, but I thought some people might still be interested on Rich's most recent post about this subject.
    Jarod and alex3619 like this.

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