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Post your NutrEval Krebs Cycle Results...

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
It may look good on paper (and certainly better than Dannybex's - yikes!), but it hasn't translated into any substantial energy increase. I'm still about 30% on the Karnofsky scale. At the time of the test, I was taking all the mito supps recommended by Heartfixer, except for NADH. I'm not tolerating that for some reason.

Because of the test results, I've since added a B complex, and I also seem to be detoxing mercury just off the methylation supps. I'm hoping maybe in about 6 months? when the mercury is detoxed, the energy will come. L-carnitine fumarate was a good one for energy. I went from only being able to handwash dishes occasionally, to being able to keep up with them regularly.

LDH values - I don't seem them listed on the Nutreval?
Understood. I guess it shows how energy values for a person are not only about the Krebs cycle. Again your mitochondrial flux looks strong so you don't seem to have the obvious blocks that something like mercury would tend to create in that cycle. However, clinically you have fatigue. So other forces are in play. Immune system dysregulation or hormonal imbalance could be major factors. then. Your Krebs results seem to suggest glycolysis and glucose balance is not an issue. Are your glucose levels ok generally?
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Instead of getting the test, can we just take a bunch of supplements to support Krebs and let our body sort things out? Even if we do get the test, doesn't that mean we might have to get retested later to make sure we corrected whatever was wrong?
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I'm not sure Lotus, but I think that's what Catseye did. And it stopped her from staying bedridden:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ve-a-big-picture-theory.386/page-3#post-10898
I find that if I'm not getting enough sleep and limiting my activities then all the supplements I'm taking are band-aids. Interesting list. I'm taking many of those. I'm taking a lot of niacinamide, but not NADH. I read that it increases norepinephrine and dopamine so I'm not sure I want to take it right now. I'm titrating biotin now, and thinking about taking alpha lipoic acid again (stopped due to possible mercury concerns. Wouldn't it be better to just take all your B5 in the form of pantethine rather than both that and pantothenic acid? Interesting what she says about ATP and peroxynitrite and superoxide
Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes - these are VERY IMPORTANT! If you take the above substances to increase your ATP production in the mitochondria, you will crash if you don't have your antioxidant enzymes in place to scavenge peroxynitrite and superoxide dismutase - all this according to Cheney - peroxynitrite is such a destructive and dangerous free radical that it can destroy tissue, what happens when we crash (at least a mito crash as opposed to an adrenal crash) is that the body shuts down energy production to stop the production of peroxynitrite which is a byproduct of the energy cycle, the body will shift to anaerobic energy production instead of aerobic - this is when you can't move and feel like you're dying, for a comparison realize that the mitos make 36 ATP molecules per glucose molecule during regular aerobic energy production but only 2 ATPs per glucose molecule during anaerobic energy production, do not skimp on these enzymes, it could cost you a crash and you'll be reluctant to try any more supplements
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
There's a product out there that I took about 10-12 years ago, for awhile, and was certainly doing much, much better back then -- called "Coenzyme A". It has pantethine, and many of the co-factors...

http://www.coenzyme-a.com/coenzymea.html

Re the enzymes -- I haven't tried them yet, but any way to increase superoxide dismutase and catalase would be extremely beneficial, as these are the one of the main markers that are deficient or even absent in ME/CFS patients.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Understood. I guess it shows how energy values for a person are not only about the Krebs cycle. Again your mitochondrial flux looks strong so you don't seem to have the obvious blocks that something like mercury would tend to create in that cycle. However, clinically you have fatigue. So other forces are in play. Immune system dysregulation or hormonal imbalance could be major factors. then. Your Krebs results seem to suggest glycolysis and glucose balance is not an issue. Are your glucose levels ok generally?

I'm on the hypoglycemic side.

I still have quite low glutathione, moderately high mercury, bad gut issues (dysbiosis, malabsorbtion, yeast, leaky gut, many food intolerances), just went off my thyroid med because I was going hyper, adrenals also seem to be recovering, but not totally. My adrenals were extremely bad, almost a flat line. I don't seem to have viral problems.

So I guess take your pick.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Calendonia,

Your mercury was tested how?

My latest test was the Nutreval test, which is blood/urine, which is only supposed to show recent or ongoing exposures - "recent" being in the last two months I think. But I've done Doctors Data previously and chelated out lead and mercury like 5 years ago. I got my last couple little mercury fillings out 7 months ago.

An interesting thing happened recently, which is eating cilantro gave me "metal detox" symptoms. I've never had this happen before. So my conclusion is, I'm already detoxing mercury, so the addition of cilantro dumped out enough more that I had obvious symptoms.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Instead of getting the test, can we just take a bunch of supplements to support Krebs and let our body sort things out? Even if we do get the test, doesn't that mean we might have to get retested later to make sure we corrected whatever was wrong?

That's what I'm hoping, is that by looking at people's Kreb's charts and seeing what areas are commonly messed up in PWC's we could come up with a body of supps that might help people without taking the test.

I took all the mito supps to try and help energy, but I had no idea B2 etc. was involved until I saw this chart. That would explain why people can take all the mito supps and still not get much energy. There are other missing factors.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Wow Caledonia your Krebs cycle is humming now! Kudos!

I don't have a recent one, but my one in 2010 when I first started talking to Rich Vank looked a lot like DannyBex's with the exception that my front end was worse and my AKG was higher relatively speaking.

Edit: your lactic acid is high though. Does that cause you any problems? What are your LDH values (lactodehydrogenase)?

I just found this thing from Sarah Myhill that explains about lactic acid:


However there is another problem. If the body is very short of ATP, it can make a very small amount of ATP directly from glucose by converting it into lactic acid. This is exactly what many CFS sufferers do and indeed we know that CFS sufferers readily switch into anaerobic metabolism. However this results in two serious problems - lactic acid quickly builds up especially in muscles to cause pain, heaviness, aching and soreness ("lactic acid burn"), secondly no glucose is available in order to make D-ribose! So new ATP cannot be easily made when you are really run down. Recovery takes days!
When mitochondria function well, as the person rests following exertion, lactic acid is quickly converted back to glucose (via-pyruvate) and the lactic burn disappears. But this is an energy requiring process! Glucose to lactic acid produces two molecules of ATP for the body to use, but the reverse process requires six molecules of ATP. If there is no ATP available, and this is of course what happens as mitochondria fail, then the lactic acid may persist for many minutes, or indeed hours causing great pain. (for the biochemists, this reverse process takes place in the liver and is called the Cori cycle).
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
I would also like to add that I just found out I'm SOD-2 +/+. That affects the mitochondria. I don't know what you would do about that.

That's a new one on me...must be from 23 & me results? I'm sure you're more than aware that Cheney, Pall, etc., have shown that one of the main issues with ME/CFS is a lack of SOD. I'm going to try some of the "Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes" that Catseye posted about a year or so ago, that apparently help raise SOD levels. There's also a new sublingual liquid SOD available as well.

My nephew has a boxer dog who's been on SOD for a couple years now. Has to give him a shot every other day (if I remember correctly), but it really makes a huge difference for the old guy... :)
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
That's a new one on me...must be from 23 & me results? I'm sure you're more than aware that Cheney, Pall, etc., have shown that one of the main issues with ME/CFS is a lack of SOD. I'm going to try some of the "Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes" that Catseye posted about a year or so ago, that apparently help raise SOD levels. There's also a new sublingual liquid SOD available as well.

My nephew has a boxer dog who's been on SOD for a couple years now. Has to give him a shot every other day (if I remember correctly), but it really makes a huge difference for the old guy... :)

Do you perhaps know the name of the liquid SOD product?
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
I would also like to add that I just found out I'm SOD-2 +/+. That affects the mitochondria. I don't know what you would do about that.

I'm SOD2 ++ as well. SOD1 is --

What i found out so far is only one product that may help a SOD2 (MnSOD) ++ person and that's C60 in olive oil.C60 mimics MnSOD, it's very interesting stuff.
Another possibility is MnSOD intravenously as told by my doc.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Vitacost is having a buy one get one half off sale on Glisodin SOD, but then I reread Catseye's post and she said this about Glisodin SOD:
I started taking most of these all at once except for the Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes, I didn't find out about those for months. There is another brand that uses gliadin for the enzymes - this is the gluten protein molecule - do not use! not worth the risk!:eek:
(But does anyone know if this will cause problems for people other than those with Celiac's? I am trying to avoid gluten, but if it's only a small amount then I'm not sure if it will cause harm or not)
 

roxie60

Senior Member
Messages
1,791
Location
Central Illinois, USA
Do you have the SNP(s) for SOD2 that you are +/+ for? I'm finding 17 SOD2 snps so which ones do you think are relevant and how did you determine? TIA

Found the SOD2 on the detox, I'm -/-.
 

roxie60

Senior Member
Messages
1,791
Location
Central Illinois, USA
Vitacost is having a buy one get one half off sale on Glisodin SOD, but then I reread Catseye's post and she said this about Glisodin SOD:

(But does anyone know if this will cause problems for people other than those with Celiac's? I am trying to avoid gluten, but if it's only a small amount then I'm not sure if it will cause harm or not)

So are u saying avoid the Glisodin if you have gluten issues but the Energy Enzymes is ok? I have been on a desperate search for energy for years. Do these energy enzymes work?
 

caledonia

Senior Member
That's a new one on me...must be from 23 & me results? I'm sure you're more than aware that Cheney, Pall, etc., have shown that one of the main issues with ME/CFS is a lack of SOD. I'm going to try some of the "Biotec Extra Energy Enzymes" that Catseye posted about a year or so ago, that apparently help raise SOD levels. There's also a new sublingual liquid SOD available as well.

My nephew has a boxer dog who's been on SOD for a couple years now. Has to give him a shot every other day (if I remember correctly), but it really makes a huge difference for the old guy... :)

SOD is in the Detoxigenomics test. If you've done 23andme, you can pull it from geneticgenie.org.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Biotec Cellguard is mentioned for SOD in the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Balch and Balch. This is the same company that makes the enzyme formula. They both contain a proprietary ingredient called IsoSproutPlex. I can't find what the ingredients are. http://www.biotecfoods.com/biotec.htm

The book also mentions barley grass, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, wheatgrass and most green plants as containing SOD.

The question is, with our typically bad digestion, will you be able to get the SOD from foods. The Biotec products are enteric coated, and you take them on an empty stomach, to get around this.

Maybe you could just take some barley grass juice and rub it on your skin?