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Post your NutrEval Krebs Cycle Results...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, May 12, 2013.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    KrebsCycle-DanBecks2010.jpg

    ...and maybe we can figure these out together?

    What I don't understand (among many other things) is my a-ketoglutaric acid is basically normal, but the things that precede it are low.

    After that, succinic acid drops big time, so I guess that means I need more of the co-factors...and then things drop even lower with basically no malice acid.

    No wonder I can hardly walk.
  2. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    How did you get just one page of the report to upload? I cannot work out how to do this.

    Thanks Pam
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Relevant info from the Nutreval Interpretation Guide:

    (1) a-ketoglutaric acid (AKG)– if this is high relative to the metabolites in the Krebs cycle before and after it, this suggests that it is being fed by glutamate, and that the flow from AKG to succinic acid is partially blocked. The latter could again be due to low magnesium or B vitamins, or to mercury toxicity. Check to see if glutamate (NonEssential Protein Amino Acids/Glutamic Acid) is also high to verify.

    (3) Succinic Acid – A low value indicates that you aren't burning amino acids as fuel at a normal rate. This is likely due to low B2, low B6, and/or low biotin.

    (4) Low succinic and malic acids suggest low Coenzyme Q-10. This would be consistent with a partial methylation cycle block, because methylation is required to synthesize Co Q-10.

    (5) If succinic acid and malic acid are low and the branched-chain amino acids (leucine, isoleucine and valine, Amino Acids/Nutritionally Essential Amino Acids) are high, the problem seems to be that they are not being fed into the Krebs cycle. The explanation would be a functional deficiency in B12, if methylmalonic acid is also high. The low succinic and malic acids will also contribute to low ATP production by the mitochondria, contributing to the fatigue

    (2) A low value in lactic acid (and possibly also pyruvic acid?) indicates that this pathway is not running very fast. A low carb diet could be one possibility.

    Suberic and adipic acids are trending low - are you on a low fat diet?

    There's a drop between cis-Aconitic Acid and Isocitric acid, so a deficiency of iron and glutathione or the presence of fluoride, mercury, arsenic or antimony could cause this. (This is from the info in the green and red circles.) To fix this, you would first want to cross check with the rest of the test (or take other tests) to determine if these things are showing up elsewhere. This will give you a better idea of exactly which of these is relevant for you.

    Then supplement for iron/glutathione, or chelate the metals, get rid of fluoride. (Note just doing methylation will start to chelate metals. Also gut microbes can hang onto metals, so getting rid of them will help with metals.)
    Skyline, Lotus97 and dannybex like this.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    It looks like he just took a picture of his printout. You could also scan it with a scanner, which is what I'm going to do. You should also be able to delete the extra pages from the pdf file in Acrobat, but I think you may need the pro version to do this (not just Acrobat Reader).
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Wow Caledonia your Krebs cycle is humming now! Kudos!

    I don't have a recent one, but my one in 2010 when I first started talking to Rich Vank looked a lot like DannyBex's with the exception that my front end was worse and my AKG was higher relatively speaking.

    Edit: your lactic acid is high though. Does that cause you any problems? What are your LDH values (lactodehydrogenase)?
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    dannybex

    I will try to get my values up soon. Mine from 2010 were a lot like yours in pattern with the exception that my AKG was even higher relatively speaking. And mine had nothing to do with mercury. My glutamate to GABA and glutamate to glutamine ratios were way out of whack. Glutamate was turning into AKG and there was a pile-up converting into the other downstream components. I think B2, B3 active forms and magnesium really helped this, along with adb12 for the succinyl coa pathway. As I have separately explained in other threads getting my ATP cycle back up to some sufficiency allowed my glutathione to go back up and I also maintain that with lot of sodium ascorbate for recycling of GSSH back into glutathione.

    But ... I still benefit from a) taking calcium pyruvate, b) taking biotin, b1, b5, b2, b3, c) taking magnesium malate, d) taking potassium citrate, and e) and taking l-carnitine fumarate (thanks to Freddd). So there are a lot of Krebs cycle intermediates I am directly supplementing with that I would probably have problems if I removed. This is all in addition to the 2500 mcg mb12 and 2500 mcg adb12 sublinguals I take every day.
    dannybex likes this.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    "(1) a-ketoglutaric acid (AKG)– if this is high relative to the metabolites in the Krebs cycle before and after it, this suggests that it is being fed by glutamate, and that the flow from AKG to succinic acid is partially blocked. The latter could again be due to low magnesium or B vitamins, or to mercury toxicity. Check to see if glutamate (NonEssential Protein Amino Acids/Glutamic Acid) is also high to verify."

    I would like to add to this. If there is a block after alpha-ketoglutaric acid then it will accumulate. This might mean a problem with the electron transport chain as well, not just a block in the Krebs cycle. Is there enough oxygen? Is there enough Co-Enzyme Q10? Is there too much oxidative stress? A genetic defect in the electron transport chain? These are additional alternatives.
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yeah, I'm jealous Caledonia! Looks like your cycle is running quite smoothly. Thanks too for going to the trouble to list all the interpretations from the NutrEval report -- I really appreciate it. It's odd that they don't list b12, b6, biotin, etc., ON the actual Krebs cycle page as cofactors...sigh. That report is like 15-17 pages long, so when going from one part to another, it's so easy to get distracted by all the other parts of the report. ESPECIALLY if one's mitochondria, etc., aren't functioning well... :)

    I looked at my three hair mineral analysis tests last night, (2002, 2009, and 2011) and none of them showed any mercury, but all three had some arsenic -- (too much rice Dan?) -- so will be working on that, but I know I'm seriously deficient in some of the b's, and also am going to try the "Krebs Cycle Chelates" that Catseye suggested.

    But first have to do an OAT test...hope to get that done in a week. Wish I had done it a couple years ago, like everything else. Hindsight is you know what...
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hope you can post yours soon...that will be interesting to see. I don't think I have a mercury problem either, since I had my fillings out in 88, 10 years before I got sick, but also because of the hair test results. I need b2 and b3 as well, but I'm hoping to find out soon (via the OAT test/interpretation) if oxalates might be binding to iron (among other things), as I can take b2 for only a day or two at a time or else my eyes get REALLY sensitive to light, even really low light, and it's supposed to HELP (along with iron and A) sensitivity and night blindness. Also I seem to need more methyl donors, so b3 can be a problem for me...but then maybe I could balance that with more methylb12/folate?

    Haven't taken decent amounts of b5 in years. I was told by the last hair analysis "expert" that I should avoid b5 like the plague because I had adrenal burnout (too much cortisol at odd times) so b5 would just make that worse. Again, hindsight is...you know.
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I did just take a picture. And then kind of searched around for the 'upload file' button, which you'll find below the box where you type in your reply/comment.
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I don't know about the latter, but I'm sure the answer to the first three questions are no, no, and YES. I also read somewhere that if there isn't sufficient acetyl CoA (pantothenate, etc.,) then one can take all the coq10 they want, but it won't join the parade, so to speak.

    Thanks Alex!
  13. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    i am still at the i-don't-get-this stage. plugging away.

    Screen Shot 2013-05-13 at 8.57.33 PM.png
  14. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    your comment is interesting, Alex, because I also have oxidative stress off-the-charts high.
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Biotin is a cofactor for pyruvate carboxylase to convert pyruvate into oxacetalate. I am not aware of b6 direct use as a cofactor in the Krebs cycle. Adb12 (not mb12) is involved in the flux through the succinyl COA branch flowing in at the bottom of the diagram.
    dannybex likes this.
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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  17. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi all
    I am attaching my Krebs cycle result from this April's MAP. It shows quite a few deficiencies related to folates plus a few other B vits too. I hope everyone can read it ok. After 2 weeks or so I started having real problems of severe migraines when taking an extra 800 mcg methylfolate and also around 1250 extra MB12 so have had to stop them. However I tolerate 3 Basic Nutrients daily (Thorne) and have done since 2007 this gives me 500 mcg mixed active folates and 400 mcg mixed cobalamins. I also do fine with a daily injection of just 0.1 ml MB12.

    Rich thought I had many toxins in my body and my recent MAP confirmed this so presumably once I raise methylation I get too toxic cos my body cannot eliminate all the rubbish. Its a real dilemma, thought I might try every other day dosing of the extra folate and MB12 but have to wait a few days to get over the dreadful migraines.

    Pam

    Attached Files:

  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    It may look good on paper (and certainly better than Dannybex's - yikes!), but it hasn't translated into any substantial energy increase. I'm still about 30% on the Karnofsky scale. At the time of the test, I was taking all the mito supps recommended by Heartfixer, except for NADH. I'm not tolerating that for some reason.

    Because of the test results, I've since added a B complex, and I also seem to be detoxing mercury just off the methylation supps. I'm hoping maybe in about 6 months? when the mercury is detoxed, the energy will come. L-carnitine fumarate was a good one for energy. I went from only being able to handwash dishes occasionally, to being able to keep up with them regularly.

    LDH values - I don't seem them listed on the Nutreval?
  19. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Here's my kreb's cycle.
    Succinic acid is way too low so there's something going wrong between AKG -> Succinic acid.
    Adipic acid is very high. All the other stuff is borderline low or borderline high.
    I'm very underweight at this moment and just can't gain any muscle mass. I'm wondering if that has to do with the extremely low succinic acid?
    Has anyone here ever supplemented with succinic acid?
    Would love to hear your comments.
    [​IMG]
  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Can people also post their Bell's Disability Scale scores, or if nothing seems to fit, a number between 0 and 100 that represents their energy levels? That's what I meant above when I said Karnofsky above. Dr. Bell modified that scale for ME/CFS. http://users.snowcrest.net/soza/DrBell.htm
    roxie60 likes this.

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