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Possible use of repeated cold stress for reducing fatigue in chronic fatigue syndrome

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by drob31, Feb 13, 2016.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2164952/


    I've been researching cold thermogenesis therapy and I wonder if it could help reset the hpa-axis and or help boost metabolism.
     
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  2. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    I have occasionally been doing a very hot shower into an ice bath lately, it is the most incredible refreshing and clearing feeling; only thing is if you overdo the cold exposure it can become quite debilitating. Have been able to do this after a good 6 months of cold showers, the effect on the nervous system and conditioning to hot and cold is great; your core temp just becomes more and more consistent and uninfluenced by the outside temp. You are looking at a good 12+ months of work to get good results I believe and will need a slow build up, also some mental clout to let the body go and let it cope.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Theodore likes this.
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @shah78 has gotten good results from cold.
     
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  5. jadam914

    jadam914 Foggy member

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  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I was something like this in 1993. It was very popular at the time, especially for CFS. It can kind of help. However all the big advocacy for it at the time came to nothing. I do not know what happened though.
     
    ukxmrv likes this.
  7. Michelle

    Michelle Decennial ME/CFS patient

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    Cold also, of course, causes vasoconstriction, which may be important given the vascular issue increasingly being proposed with this disease. I know a hot bath (but not too hot) provides almost immediate relief from my fibro/deep widespread pain but that later, cold water will often leave me feeling slightly energized. To be sure, alternating heat and cold are often recommended for chronic injury inflammation (tendonitis, etc. -- at least, I've had a podiatrist and multiple massage therapists recommend it for various tissue injuries).
     
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  8. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    Everything I know about Cold Therapy I learned at Jackkruse.com. CT is one of about ten effective bio hacks I've gleaned from Jack's writing. I no longer have CFS/FM symptoms .I don't spend a lot of time over here, because there is almost no interest in trying Jack's "crazy ideas". Please check it out.
     
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  9. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I don't think it's a crazy idea. I think Kruse has some great, and legitimate theories. I also like his paleo approach, but I do think people with CFS need more (safe) carbs.
     
  10. meandthecat

    meandthecat Senior Member

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    Back when I was a crazy hippy and lived in a tipi for several years, in a wet welsh valley, I would wash each day in the stream, breaking the ice in the winter to sit in the water, 'cause it was warmer than the air. I walked barefoot in the snow and didn't bother too much about clothes. The only time I felt cold was when I stayed in a house.

    Less impressive than walking up mountains but something I had forgotten about.

    Leaving the valley precipitated the worst flu- like thing I had ever experienced for about 6 months, long before ME intruded into my awareness. I had thought it might have been OP poisoning from the sheep-dip that washed down from the hills but perhaps it reflected the change in lifestyle.


    I still work outside and the cold is really good for moderating symptoms but maybe I will embrace it in a more conscious manner.
     
  11. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Thanks for that link, it has some very interesting information. Last two years I have been using any means necessary to play with and 'hack' my system and brain; I do not think many here have the awareness or realize the tools that are available to them to try to manage their situation. But that being said I think most people and the mainstream medical establishment for that matter think these are just some nice tricks with limited effect that might help your memory a little, when in fact we are looking at tools and techniques to put in place as a lifestyle to manage serious neurological diseases and get the whole system re-giged to run as best as possible. Neuroplasticity is big in things like MS and Parkinson's I believe to help manage the neural and cognitive issues, so why isn't it in ME?

    I think it is a brave new world in many respects, but the information is just not out there enough. I found this guys profile very interesting, the difficulties he faced himself but then the lengths he has gone to, the information and tools he has used to empower himself and his whole physiology quite remarkable; now using it to help empower others,

    https://www.jackkruse.com/jackkruse-com-practitioner-directory/chris-wyllie/

    Full integration is my saviour, bumbling around for years thinking there was one specific answer with a solution was mostly a serious mental distraction, at the same time focusing on one thing at a time but in different areas has got me to where I am; it has just all had to come together and I have had to spend much time refining and understanding what works.
     
  12. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    My Dear L'engle: "This thing has been " around" for sixty million years if you acknowledge that we humans are mammals.". :)
     
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  13. rippe

    rippe

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    germany
    Here Rhonda Patrick interviews Wim Hof and they talk a little bit about their research, what happens to the immun system:

     
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  14. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Rogan and Patrick talking about this again in a new podcast.

    I can not talk enough about how important this has been for me, it takes time, it has been around 8 months for me now and the long term benefit on conditioning, settling the nerves and cold tolerance can not be underestimated. I took my first early morning, 8am dip in the ocean yesterday and the whole experience felt like a minor miracle, after all these years.

     
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  15. rippe

    rippe

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    Hey now I've heard there is this uncoupling Proteine UCP1(?) in brown fat which shuts down Phosphorylation in Complex 5 in order to use the proton gradient to make heat instead of ATP. It is therefore that newborns don't freeze when they can't yet shiver and they have a lot of brown fat. This is quite understandable but at the same time UCP only occurs in brown fat and not in other cells or white fat. So how does the body exactly create instant heat when you jump into ice water and you DON't move or don't shiver but still your body gets hot? I don't understand. I know bloodlfow increases but at the same time temperature raises and most importantly breathing rate raises too. So there must be a connection to the Electron Transportchain, but how does it work since there is now Uncoupling Proteine like in brown fat. I think i missed something.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermogenin
     
  16. Old Bones

    Old Bones Senior Member

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    I watched a webinar on the weekend organized by Ellie Stein, one of Canada's few ME specialists. One of the speakers was Cory Fagan, an exercise physiologist and performance coach at TCR Sport Lab in Calgary. The two-day CPET test is available at this location, done according to Staci Stevens' protocol. Cory mentioned cryotherapy as being successful in helping patients recover from the two-day test, particularly those who have travelled from out of town and (presumably) need to be recovered adequately to return home.

    I tried immersing myself in an ice-water bath, only once, after hearing about this strategy in the early 1990's. The experience was too unpleasant to repeat.
     
  17. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    having Adrenal Insufficiency I know cold is one of the major stressors for my adrenals.
    Not ready to submit the system to these kind of shocks to try and strengthen it.

    Whenever there's cold I need to supplement extra Hydrocortisone. It's a 1:1 relation. Cold treatment would kick the adrenals, just like coffee or a fright would. Kicking is not good for tired adrenals.

    >reset the hpa-axis and or help boost metabolism.
    I reset my HPA-axis with NLP/Mindfulness tools (Reverse Therapy and Gupta Amygdala Retraining). Physical resetting didn't work for me. Although I believe in the work of dr. Goldstein who sprays chemicals in the nose to deliver them swiftly to the brain.
    I do not believe in shocking the system into a better modus operandi.

    But I must say: now that I aid my adrenals sufficiently I am more cold tolerant. I even enjoy it. Cold doesn't invoke the stress reaction anymore. So: with better adrenals I think Cold Treatment may be something good.
     
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  18. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    @Old Bones @WoolPippi

    One thing that needs to be mentioned here and made clear is that 'shock' would never be the right way to approach this in most with ME and it is not how I have approached it over the last 12 months. It would be much more ideal for sufferers to take a very grandual approach, even just slowly trying to tolerate colder weather and indoor temperatures to start with, then gradually implementing some coldness to showers. Without adequate preparation, in a normal persons case the deep breathing, which ME sufferers will not even likely be able to do, going straight to an ice bath or cryo chamber will just end badly.

    Its something that will take persistence over time, I mean it would certainly take an ME body/biology a long time to have any chance of getting benefit from this, but I can not understate how worth it it is if ground can be made.

    I think a lot of the videos on this subject give false impressions with the 'two week becoming a superhuman' thing when I think real adaptation and health benefit, even in normal people would take years. I am sure it takes ice swimmers many years to do what they do.
     
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  19. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    The easiest way to get cold is gradually. Start your shower at normal temperature. Get comfortable and then slowly turn down the temperature. Keep doing until the water is cold. It's not uncomfortable at all to do it that way
     
    sb4 likes this.
  20. Firefly_

    Firefly_ Senior Member

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    That's a good idea, thanks! I've toyed with it a bit but I think I'm too hedonistic to purposefully make myself uncomfortable and enjoy it lol.
     

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