• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Possible CFS success story. Got much better after 4-5 years. Here's what has helped.

grapes

Senior Member
Messages
362
I found increasing to 300mg of ubiquinol helpful. I continue to take digestive enzymes because I have problems with absorption.
Wonderful about increasing and seeing results!

I just suspect that I thoroughly used up any mito energy reserve capacity I had ten days ago and then some!! I was getting SO much better up to that point, but clearly overdid it in my recovery from six months of copper detoxing misery (which probably damaged my already-goofy Krebs cycle), then SIBO treatment, then a yeast infection from hell.

Dr. Myhill states: If [ the efficiency with which ATP is made from ADP ] is abnormal, then this could be as a result of magnesium deficiency, of low levels of Co-enzyme Q10, low levels of vitamin B3 (NAD) or of acetyl L-carnitine. I have a lot of evidence that my CQ10 is never adequate, plus I'm sure my once great magnesium levels had gone down by the occasional cramps I was getting my legs in January. And there is also evidence from OAT recommendation that my B2 and B3 need to be more optimal, anddddd that my carnitine needs to be more optimal as evidenced by my Fatty Acid Metabolism disorder. It just all adds up!!! The OAT has rocked for me.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
@grapes I had several other tests done with my OAT. My antioxidant status was low, lycopene and COQ10 in particular.

I took mega magnesium and taurine injections for years, this was probably the best treatment for me. I agree you need to take the co-factors as well.

From what I have read about Dr.Myhill is that she doesn't address the underlying cause.

I also had a RBC Fatty acids test and my Omega3 levels were down at 3%. When I started taking fish oils it improved my cognitive issues within one month.
 

grapes

Senior Member
Messages
362
@grapes I had several other tests done with my OAT. My antioxidant status was low, lycopene and COQ10 in particular.

I took mega magnesium and taurine injections for years, this was probably the best treatment for me. I agree you need to take the co-factors as well.

From what I have read about Dr.Myhill is that she doesn't address the underlying cause.

I also had a RBC Fatty acids test and my Omega3 levels were down at 3%. When I started taking fish oils it improved my cognitive issues within one month.

I haven't seen Myhill say a thing about the OAT test, which certainly could point to the cause. Sure did for me. I can't begin to recommend it more.

Glad you had such success with Omega 3's, magnesium, and taurine.

And I have to say...something started to kick in today. I am a "bit" less tired! But I've a way to go, so we'll see. Here's what I've been taking for at least a week...
  • L-Carnitine Fumerate 2400 a day (same as the last few months) – for fatty acid metabolism problem
  • CoQ10 500 mg a day (higher then before) – for energy metabolism; OAT shows insufficiency!!
  • B-vitamins---though I am waiting on Riboflavin (B2) and B3 – needed for ATP. I like ATP Cofactors by Pure Essence–has 100mg of Riboflavin and 500mg of Niacin.
  • Molybdenum (same as before) – needed for mitochrondrial, helps lower sulphur, was low on hair tissue
  • Manganese (same as before) – helps lower sulphur (mine is quite high)
  • Chromium and Vanadium (same as before) – for my carbohydrate metabolism disorder, both low in hair testing
  • Enzymes--(same as before) recommended dose on bottle– to help me break down proteins since I don’t do that well
  • Magnesium 400 mcg (restarted since I got low) – helps ATP and improves energy, fires up enzyme reactions (Is in the Krebs Cycle intermediates I am taking below.
  • Amino Acids (new--using the Now brand of Amino Complete) – supports Krebs Cycle/energy. Needed with defects.
  • Arginine 500/ Ornithine 250 ( new and I take double) – to lower high sulphur, aluminum, and OAT shows insufficiency of arginine
  • L-carnosine 500 mg (new and I take double) – to counter lactic acid, which body makes when inefficient energy metab
  • Creatine – stimulates the production of ATP–one scoop in water
  • AAKG Arginine and Alpha-Ketoglutarate – the latter is a Krebs cycle intermediate I wanted to try, one of the few that aren’t high on my OAT–1 tsp, plus more arginine...taken in water with the creatinine.
 

panckage

Senior Member
Messages
777
Location
Vancouver, BC
I appreciate that you feel better. But without a proper diagnosis by a qualified medical professional you cannot say for sure you have CFS.
I'm sick of hearing this. Most people here have to go through several doctors to get diagnosed. So you believe that because 5 doctors say you don't have CFS and the 6th says you do, it means you have CFS? :bang-head: You can throw around your arrogance on spending thousands (or more) to get have some diploma but CFS is not hard to diagnose. God if you read the CCC criteria for CFS it doesn't even have diagnostic testing its just a damned checklist
 

grapes

Senior Member
Messages
362
Thank you @grapes for the detailed replies! Please let us know how this regimen will affect you.
You're welcome. I have to say...something started to turn around yesterday. It took ten days but it has happened. Today is definitely better, too. I can prove nothing about what I've been taking, other than to say that I do believe the OAT has been a HUGE factor in me figuring some things out as to what has been going on and what to do about it. The "Energy Metabolism" problem that has been revealed in my OAT makes complete sense by my symptoms my entire adult life...and especially my symptoms with copper detoxing (the overly-excessive fatigue)...and my latest reaction to activity. I just have a strong suspicion that the copper made my inherit life-long mito issues worse. Now granted, I also had to do a LOT of research about amounts and more details than the OAT provided. But something has definitely started to work!
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I'm sick of hearing this. Most people here have to go through several doctors to get diagnosed. So you believe that because 5 doctors say you don't have CFS and the 6th says you do, it means you have CFS? :bang-head: You can throw around your arrogance on spending thousands (or more) to get have some diploma but CFS is not hard to diagnose. God if you read the CCC criteria for CFS it doesn't even have diagnostic testing its just a damned checklist
According to the document downloaded from here it requires the exclusion of numerous other conditions, which does require some clinical assessment.
Exclusions: Exclude active disease processes that explain most of the
major symptoms of fatigue, sleep disturbance, pain, and cognitive
dysfunction. It is essential to exclude certain diseases, which would be
tragic to miss: Addisons disease, Cushings Syndrome, hypothyroidism,
hyperthyroidism, iron deficiency, other treatable forms of anemia,
iron overload syndrome, diabetes mellitus, and cancer. It is also
essential to exclude treatable sleep disorders such as upper airway resistance
syndrome and obstructive or central sleep apnea; rheumatological
disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, polymyositis
and polymyalgia rheumatica; immune disorders such as AIDS; neurological
disorders such as multiple sclerosis (MS), Parkinsonism,
myasthenia gravis and B12 deficiency; infectious diseases such as tuberculosis,
chronic hepatitis, Lyme disease, etc.; primary psychiatric
disorders and substance abuse. Exclusion of other diagnoses, which
cannot be reasonably excluded by the patients history and physical
examination, is achieved by laboratory testing and imaging. If a
potentially confounding medical condition is under control, then the
diagnosis of ME/CFS can be entertained if patients meet the criteria otherwise.
 

jess100

Senior Member
Messages
149
TL;DR: Went from about 20% of normal functioning to about 70-90% (100% being very healthy level of endurance and energy).

Routines that helped: sleep, rest, gradual exercise, stretching, diet.

Supplements that helped greatly: !!!St. John's Wort!!!, !D-ribose!, Melatonin, Phosphorylated Serine.

Supplements that helped moderately: Krebs cycle acids (mainly: malic acid and citric acid), l-carnitine, digestive enzymes, caffeine (will explain below).

Supplements that probably helped, but not sure how much: multivitamins, various vitamins and minerals (will explain below), omega 3.

Turning point (positive) was triggered by: D-ribose, St. John's Wort and gradual, systematic exercise (walking).

Here's the full story:

Hi! I'm a 29 year old male that has been living with CFS for the last 4-5 years. English is not my native language - sorry if the writing is clumsy. I should start off by saying that I was never officially diagnosed with CFS because I had a negative experience with my doctor. He did basic blood work which turned out fine and proceeded to tell me that it was all in my head. He was rude and did not listen. He said I was way too young for what I was describing and that it was only in my head. Back then my mental state was vulnerable and this experience just scared me off and I never went back to talk to him or another doctor. That probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but that's what's happened.

Now, I should mention that I have been interested in topics of health, diet, healthy living, mental health, exercise, CFS (for the last 4 years) etc. for about 8 years. I have spent over 5000 hours researching various related topics. That's what I've been doing most of my free time for the last 12 years - researching different topics from health, diet and well being, to philosophy, religion and sciences. So when I didn't get help from a doctor, I was hoping to solve my CFS mystery by myself, considering how much research into related topics I have done and was willing to do.

My CFS is probably described as a mild case. I was still able to function "normally" on the outside: I continued studying in the University, working part time and having some limited recreational activities, but it sure was very, very, very hard. I had to regularly skip classes, work for only a couple hours at a time etc. On the inside it was extremely, extremely difficult to function normally. The main symptom was of course fatigue. Morning to evening I felt tired. In the morning, getting out of bed was very hard. I had troubles falling asleep and became a super light sleeper, even though previously I used to sleep like a log. I was depressed and had 0 motivation to do anything. Living became a chore, a struggle. Waking up and falling asleep I was thinking that my life sucks, because I wasn't anymore able to enjoy it and everything was a struggle. I always felt either tired or wired and tired. Mental fog was a huge problem. It took extreme amounts of willpower to continue researching CFS. Was very hard to concentrate. I felt constantly anxious. Muscle and joint pain. Decreased libido. Lowered immunity. Migranes. Often felt cold for no reason. Light sensitivity. Confusion and anxiety in places with lots of people. Stressful situations were taking a huge toll each time. Mental and emotional endurance went down the drain. Etc and so on. It's a huge list that is familiar to anyone with CFS.

What I think has triggered CFS was me being raw vegan for 4 years and possibly over-training. I have done sports my whole life and had crazy good endurance. I used to compete in swimming and tennis, did weight lifting for 12 years, regularly jogged for years, did various martial arts for years etc. I used to excercise 7 times a week, often twice daily for years before CFS with no signs of over-training and I had a lot of fun doing that - it was a benefit of going strict raw vegan. Endurance and energy were through the roof. Then some minor health problems followed and I got generally tired of such strict life style, so I stopped. Some time during the following year CFS has started and got to its worst point in another year.

At first, I tried to rule out other conditions. Spent most of my time researching and trying various supplement protocols and diets. Things I've tried are numerous. By adjusting diet, supplement protocols and using some tools like blood sugar meter, thermometer, pH strips, blood pressure meter etc. it possible to rule out many diseases that can be confused with CFS like (off the top of my head): celiac disease or gluten sensitivity, leaky gut, gut disbiosis, some infections and parasites, food allergies, chemical allergies, pre-diabetes, insulin resistance, iron anaemia, b12 anaemia, various vitamin and mineral deficiencies and so on. After years of experimentation I haven't been able to rule out CFS or determine it's root cause. Perhaps I have reached a limit as to what can be measured and ruled out without expensive medical equipment with the exception of basic blood work, hair mineral analysis via Dr. L. Wilson and DNA report via "23 and me". However I did find plenty of things that have helped me.

So, what has helped me. First I tried Nutritional Balancing (sent my hair to Dr. Wilson's practitioner), so we determined my mineral levels and I started the programme to correct the imbalances. I did that for about a year and I did see definite progress during that year. However I was still very far from being healed.

I soon found out that I need plenty of rest, avoiding stress and exactly 8.5 hours of sleep every night.

To combat insomnia I used melatonin and it was just OK, but it was still there. But then I was looking for a way to correct what looks like a cortisol spike in the evening and while trying various supplements, stumbled on phosphorylated serine (Seriphos) that has help my sleep greatly in combination with melatonin. I take 1 mg melatonin and 1 Seriphos pill 45 minutes before going to bed.

To wake up in the morning and combat morning malaise, I found that exactly one large serving of green tea with breakfast made me feel good. I did of course try eliminating caffeine all together, but the symptoms of fatigue and mental imparement were unbearable without it, so I experimented with different stimulants, possible uppers like liquorice root and ginseng, and found out that a serving of green tea precisely once with breakfast is OK. I do realize that most often caffeine is a no-no, but I'm just describing my experience.

For general energy level increase, I found D-Ribose to make an extreme difference in my well being. Once I have started taking 15 grams a day, my wellbeing has changed dramatically for the better and my energy levels have much improved.

As general uppers, I found that Krebs Cycle acids give me an energy boost without a crash. I just eat sour fruits daily (citric acid) and apples (malic acid) when I feel a lack of energy. Sometimes I take malic acid as a powder with water. You can get it very cheap from a wine brewing shop. Just be careful not to burn your mouth, stomach lining and avoid contact with tooth enamel. So half to a single spoon of malic acid dissolved in a glass of water and never on an empty stomach. Also sometimes when I need a boost, I take acetyl-l-carnitine. If I remember correctly it boosts Krebs Cycle and helps cells generate energy. I take 1.5 grams once a day when I need it.

Any kind of stimulants used to give me increased anxiety, but I have been able to GREATLY reduce it and most of my mental symptoms like brain fog with 1 supplement: St. John's Wort, standardized extract. It has done wonders for my well being to a point that I feel mostly healed. It has changed everything, including my energy levels and even response to exercise. To this day I'm not sure how it has been able to do so much good, but it did. If you want to try it, experiment with different brands. An older way of making effective St. John's wort extracts is to standardize for Hypericin. "Now St John's Wort" is what I'm taking and it works. A better and more recent way is to standardize for Hyperforin, like the Perika brand. I currently experiment with it and it does work better, but is more expensive. Also research has shown that not all brands are equal in terms of claimed and actual hypericin/hyperforin content, so if one brand doesn't work or work well - try another. Now brand has never let me down and recently Perika.

St. John's Wort did give me one side effect, which is increase in migraine occurrence. But considering how much it has helped with everything else, I'll take migraines :). And they have decreased after a few months.

I discovered that digestive enzymes make my digestion near ideal and take them to this day. I would recommend Healthy Origins Digestive Enzymes to anyone. They are the best in terms of price/performance that I have been able to find.

I have tried Fredd's B12 protocol and followed it for about half a year. Initially my fatigue and a few other symptoms increased greatly but got back to pre B12 protocol in a few weeks. That should suggest that the protocol worked for me, but it didn't produce extreme results. I got better in this half a year, but that was also about the time I discovered D-Ribose which does help me greatly. I've stopped Fredd's protocol after half a year and the way I was feeling didn't change. However when I tried stopping D-ribose, I quickly got worse in a few days. So I'm not sure exactly how much this B12 protocol has helped me. Having been a vegan for about 4 years and then a vegetarian for a year, my B12 was probably pretty low, so it probably did me good.

So in summary, I currently take: a multivitamin twice daily (Life Extension Two-per-day capsules), St. John's Wort 3 times a day, D-Ribose at 15 grams a day, 4 g omega 3 fish oil once with the evening meal, digestive enzymes with each cooked meal, acetyl-l-carnitine when I need it, malic acid when I need it (sour apples work just as well), melatonin and phosphorylated serine in the evening, 45 minutes before going to bed.

As for exercise, I found that daily activity maintains my energy levels. Walking being the best. 30-60 minutes of walking or some other activity make a huge difference in how I feel. It has to be daily exercise for me and 30 minutes+, even if it's very light.

So all in all, I've been feeling pretty good for the last half a year. A turning point was definitely St John's Wort, D-ribose and the discovery of 30+ minutes of daily activity. I'm now able to enjoy life again, study, spend time with family and friends, do sports (if I don't over-train) and other normal life activities.

I think I should mention that I follow a healthy diet and have been for many years. A healthy diet is essential for good health. I've tried many extreme diets, but settled for something middle of the road. I don't eat junk food apart from occasional meal out. Eat fruits and veggies daily. I don't eat much sugar and drink about 3 liters of water daily. I eat products made with only unrefined flour. I don't usually eat bread. I don't eat too much meat. I minimize processed foods, because they often contain unhealthy additives, processed oils (trans-fats) and low quality oils. I minimise consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and omega 6's. Each of my meals contain: protein, fat and carbs, apart from a daily fruit meal or two. I don't snack (apart from fruits, which I consider a separate meal and a single apple after exercise). I eat very soon after I wake up and generally don't eat at least a few hours before going to sleep (and sometimes for 6+ hours before sleep). I eat soon after serious exercise. I consume only unrefined sea salt. I prioritise foods with low glycemic index. Those are the things that I remembered off the top of my head.

I hope that my story will help someone to get better. I wish all the best to all suffering from any serious illness. No one has to go through what some of you are going and you are heroes for what you are going through! I wish you all of you to get better!

Feel free to ask me questions and have a nice day!
 

jess100

Senior Member
Messages
149
TL;DR: Went from about 20% of normal functioning to about 70-90% (100% being very healthy level of endurance and energy).

Routines that helped: sleep, rest, gradual exercise, stretching, diet.

Supplements that helped greatly: !!!St. John's Wort!!!, !D-ribose!, Melatonin, Phosphorylated Serine.

Supplements that helped moderately: Krebs cycle acids (mainly: malic acid and citric acid), l-carnitine, digestive enzymes, caffeine (will explain below).

Supplements that probably helped, but not sure how much: multivitamins, various vitamins and minerals (will explain below), omega 3.

Turning point (positive) was triggered by: D-ribose, St. John's Wort and gradual, systematic exercise (walking).

Here's the full story:

Hi! I'm a 29 year old male that has been living with CFS for the last 4-5 years. English is not my native language - sorry if the writing is clumsy. I should start off by saying that I was never officially diagnosed with CFS because I had a negative experience with my doctor. He did basic blood work which turned out fine and proceeded to tell me that it was all in my head. He was rude and did not listen. He said I was way too young for what I was describing and that it was only in my head. Back then my mental state was vulnerable and this experience just scared me off and I never went back to talk to him or another doctor. That probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, but that's what's happened.

Now, I should mention that I have been interested in topics of health, diet, healthy living, mental health, exercise, CFS (for the last 4 years) etc. for about 8 years. I have spent over 5000 hours researching various related topics. That's what I've been doing most of my free time for the last 12 years - researching different topics from health, diet and well being, to philosophy, religion and sciences. So when I didn't get help from a doctor, I was hoping to solve my CFS mystery by myself, considering how much research into related topics I have done and was willing to do.

My CFS is probably described as a mild case. I was still able to function "normally" on the outside: I continued studying in the University, working part time and having some limited recreational activities, but it sure was very, very, very hard. I had to regularly skip classes, work for only a couple hours at a time etc. On the inside it was extremely, extremely difficult to function normally. The main symptom was of course fatigue. Morning to evening I felt tired. In the morning, getting out of bed was very hard. I had troubles falling asleep and became a super light sleeper, even though previously I used to sleep like a log. I was depressed and had 0 motivation to do anything. Living became a chore, a struggle. Waking up and falling asleep I was thinking that my life sucks, because I wasn't anymore able to enjoy it and everything was a struggle. I always felt either tired or wired and tired. Mental fog was a huge problem. It took extreme amounts of willpower to continue researching CFS. Was very hard to concentrate. I felt constantly anxious. Muscle and joint pain. Decreased libido. Lowered immunity. Migranes. Often felt cold for no reason. Light sensitivity. Confusion and anxiety in places with lots of people. Stressful situations were taking a huge toll each time. Mental and emotional endurance went down the drain. Etc and so on. It's a huge list that is familiar to anyone with CFS.

What I think has triggered CFS was me being raw vegan for 4 years and possibly over-training. I have done sports my whole life and had crazy good endurance. I used to compete in swimming and tennis, did weight lifting for 12 years, regularly jogged for years, did various martial arts for years etc. I used to excercise 7 times a week, often twice daily for years before CFS with no signs of over-training and I had a lot of fun doing that - it was a benefit of going strict raw vegan. Endurance and energy were through the roof. Then some minor health problems followed and I got generally tired of such strict life style, so I stopped. Some time during the following year CFS has started and got to its worst point in another year.

At first, I tried to rule out other conditions. Spent most of my time researching and trying various supplement protocols and diets. Things I've tried are numerous. By adjusting diet, supplement protocols and using some tools like blood sugar meter, thermometer, pH strips, blood pressure meter etc. it possible to rule out many diseases that can be confused with CFS like (off the top of my head): celiac disease or gluten sensitivity, leaky gut, gut disbiosis, some infections and parasites, food allergies, chemical allergies, pre-diabetes, insulin resistance, iron anaemia, b12 anaemia, various vitamin and mineral deficiencies and so on. After years of experimentation I haven't been able to rule out CFS or determine it's root cause. Perhaps I have reached a limit as to what can be measured and ruled out without expensive medical equipment with the exception of basic blood work, hair mineral analysis via Dr. L. Wilson and DNA report via "23 and me". However I did find plenty of things that have helped me.

So, what has helped me. First I tried Nutritional Balancing (sent my hair to Dr. Wilson's practitioner), so we determined my mineral levels and I started the programme to correct the imbalances. I did that for about a year and I did see definite progress during that year. However I was still very far from being healed.

I soon found out that I need plenty of rest, avoiding stress and exactly 8.5 hours of sleep every night.

To combat insomnia I used melatonin and it was just OK, but it was still there. But then I was looking for a way to correct what looks like a cortisol spike in the evening and while trying various supplements, stumbled on phosphorylated serine (Seriphos) that has help my sleep greatly in combination with melatonin. I take 1 mg melatonin and 1 Seriphos pill 45 minutes before going to bed.

To wake up in the morning and combat morning malaise, I found that exactly one large serving of green tea with breakfast made me feel good. I did of course try eliminating caffeine all together, but the symptoms of fatigue and mental imparement were unbearable without it, so I experimented with different stimulants, possible uppers like liquorice root and ginseng, and found out that a serving of green tea precisely once with breakfast is OK. I do realize that most often caffeine is a no-no, but I'm just describing my experience.

For general energy level increase, I found D-Ribose to make an extreme difference in my well being. Once I have started taking 15 grams a day, my wellbeing has changed dramatically for the better and my energy levels have much improved.

As general uppers, I found that Krebs Cycle acids give me an energy boost without a crash. I just eat sour fruits daily (citric acid) and apples (malic acid) when I feel a lack of energy. Sometimes I take malic acid as a powder with water. You can get it very cheap from a wine brewing shop. Just be careful not to burn your mouth, stomach lining and avoid contact with tooth enamel. So half to a single spoon of malic acid dissolved in a glass of water and never on an empty stomach. Also sometimes when I need a boost, I take acetyl-l-carnitine. If I remember correctly it boosts Krebs Cycle and helps cells generate energy. I take 1.5 grams once a day when I need it.

Any kind of stimulants used to give me increased anxiety, but I have been able to GREATLY reduce it and most of my mental symptoms like brain fog with 1 supplement: St. John's Wort, standardized extract. It has done wonders for my well being to a point that I feel mostly healed. It has changed everything, including my energy levels and even response to exercise. To this day I'm not sure how it has been able to do so much good, but it did. If you want to try it, experiment with different brands. An older way of making effective St. John's wort extracts is to standardize for Hypericin. "Now St John's Wort" is what I'm taking and it works. A better and more recent way is to standardize for Hyperforin, like the Perika brand. I currently experiment with it and it does work better, but is more expensive. Also research has shown that not all brands are equal in terms of claimed and actual hypericin/hyperforin content, so if one brand doesn't work or work well - try another. Now brand has never let me down and recently Perika.

St. John's Wort did give me one side effect, which is increase in migraine occurrence. But considering how much it has helped with everything else, I'll take migraines :). And they have decreased after a few months.

I discovered that digestive enzymes make my digestion near ideal and take them to this day. I would recommend Healthy Origins Digestive Enzymes to anyone. They are the best in terms of price/performance that I have been able to find.

I have tried Fredd's B12 protocol and followed it for about half a year. Initially my fatigue and a few other symptoms increased greatly but got back to pre B12 protocol in a few weeks. That should suggest that the protocol worked for me, but it didn't produce extreme results. I got better in this half a year, but that was also about the time I discovered D-Ribose which does help me greatly. I've stopped Fredd's protocol after half a year and the way I was feeling didn't change. However when I tried stopping D-ribose, I quickly got worse in a few days. So I'm not sure exactly how much this B12 protocol has helped me. Having been a vegan for about 4 years and then a vegetarian for a year, my B12 was probably pretty low, so it probably did me good.

So in summary, I currently take: a multivitamin twice daily (Life Extension Two-per-day capsules), St. John's Wort 3 times a day, D-Ribose at 15 grams a day, 4 g omega 3 fish oil once with the evening meal, digestive enzymes with each cooked meal, acetyl-l-carnitine when I need it, malic acid when I need it (sour apples work just as well), melatonin and phosphorylated serine in the evening, 45 minutes before going to bed.

As for exercise, I found that daily activity maintains my energy levels. Walking being the best. 30-60 minutes of walking or some other activity make a huge difference in how I feel. It has to be daily exercise for me and 30 minutes+, even if it's very light.

So all in all, I've been feeling pretty good for the last half a year. A turning point was definitely St John's Wort, D-ribose and the discovery of 30+ minutes of daily activity. I'm now able to enjoy life again, study, spend time with family and friends, do sports (if I don't over-train) and other normal life activities.

I think I should mention that I follow a healthy diet and have been for many years. A healthy diet is essential for good health. I've tried many extreme diets, but settled for something middle of the road. I don't eat junk food apart from occasional meal out. Eat fruits and veggies daily. I don't eat much sugar and drink about 3 liters of water daily. I eat products made with only unrefined flour. I don't usually eat bread. I don't eat too much meat. I minimize processed foods, because they often contain unhealthy additives, processed oils (trans-fats) and low quality oils. I minimise consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and omega 6's. Each of my meals contain: protein, fat and carbs, apart from a daily fruit meal or two. I don't snack (apart from fruits, which I consider a separate meal and a single apple after exercise). I eat very soon after I wake up and generally don't eat at least a few hours before going to sleep (and sometimes for 6+ hours before sleep). I eat soon after serious exercise. I consume only unrefined sea salt. I prioritise foods with low glycemic index. Those are the things that I remembered off the top of my head.

I hope that my story will help someone to get better. I wish all the best to all suffering from any serious illness. No one has to go through what some of you are going and you are heroes for what you are going through! I wish you all of you to get better!

Feel free to ask me questions and have a nice day!
 

grapes

Senior Member
Messages
362
Great info, arty0mk.

I am extremely hesitant to take D-Ribose consistently. I saw a post on another website of a guy who took those high amounts for three months, then got SIBO again! http://www.medicalinsider.com/mitochondrial.html That is the last place I want to go again. So I decided to ONLY take it if I do heavy activity (which I'm far away from doing at the moment. lol.)

I find it interesting that you focused on malic acid and citric acid. Why those two? I decided upon AKG (it's one that wasn't high on my OAT profile) and another one I'm not recalling at the moment. I also take Arginine and Orthinine (may have spelled that wrong). L-carnisine for my lactic acid.

The one thing I hope I'm right on is the following: there are certain high levels in my OAT profile where information I listen to states that I'm deficient in, and thus should take. Yet with my high levels in the Krebs cycle, it seems like I should MORE be focusing on treating the blockage, not putting a lot more of the intermediates in me...because they are just going to continue coming out. If my logic is wrong, let's talk.

I am, by the way, very disappointed in Enzymatic Therapy's Kerbs Cycle Chelates. They took out all the intermediates almost a year ago. It does have 400 mg Magnesium, but the rest of the minerals are paltry...and you have to take 4 big tablets just to get all the latter.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Great info, arty0mk.

I am extremely hesitant to take D-Ribose consistently. I saw a post on another website of a guy who took those high amounts for three months, then got SIBO again! http://www.medicalinsider.com/mitochondrial.html That is the last place I want to go again. So I decided to ONLY take it if I do heavy activity (which I'm far away from
You are right to be cautious about d-ribose. When it doesn't suit someone it can be pretty nasty.

Having spent a lot of time and trouble sorting my gut out, d-ribose messed it up again within days, along with some of the other symptom improvements the gut improvement had brought about. It also made me feel as though a war were going on inside me. I derived no benefits from it, and am unlikely to touch it again. That page you linked to was interesting. Re Dr Cheney, from Erica Verrillo's e-book:

"Dr. Cheney has observed that fully one-third of his patients cannot tolerate D-Ribose. To test for sensitivities, an initial small dose (1 to 2 grams a day) is recommended. PROS. D-Ribose appears to be generally well tolerated by people with CFS/ ME. Patients usually notice improvement in energy levels within two or three days, although one patient commented that “within an hour, it was like a super thick fog bank had dissipated.” D-Ribose works particularly well with brain fog, daytime sleepiness and hypersomnia. CONS. Some patients report that D-Ribose makes them sleepy, and that it saps them of energy. Those who take high doses (15 grams a day) have reported diarrhea, nausea, and headache."

Verrillo, Erica (2012-09-14). Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: A Treatment Guide, 2nd Edition (Kindle Locations 12956-12962). Erica Verrillo. Kindle Edition.
 
Messages
27
@grapes thank you!

I've been taking D-Ribose daily for over a year now, at 10-15 grams a day, and I see only benefits from it. However I guess that's individual.

About the acids, well, out of the acids that take part in the Krebs cycle, citric, succinic, malic and tartaric are cheap and easy to obtain. Taking Krebs cycle acids can boost it if any of these acids are a limiting factor. All of them are used in wine and beer making, so I just went to a brewing shop and bought them for little money. Also, malic and citric acids are present in fruits: most sour fruits have citric acid, and malic acid is what makes apples sour. I've read that CFS sufferers often have tartaric acid pooling and causing problems, so I didn't use it. I tried succinic acid and it didn't do much for me. So now I use malic and citric acids in combination with acetyl-l-carnitine when I need an energy boost.

The one thing I hope I'm right on is the following: there are certain high levels in my OAT profile where information I listen to states that I'm deficient in, and thus should take. Yet with my high levels in the Krebs cycle, it seems like I should MORE be focusing on treating the blockage, not putting a lot more of the intermediates in me...because they are just going to continue coming out. If my logic is wrong, let's talk.

I'm not sure if my understanding of Krebs cycle is good enough to see if your logic is correct. What is a blockage and how do you think you can treat it?

Though there is nothing wrong with balancing the Krebs cycle, I don't think that it is the underlying cause of our problems. With CFS-like illnesses, many systems of the body start functioning abnormally, and Krebs cycle is just one of them. While getting Krebs cycle to function properly is important, it is essential to find the root cause of our problems. Which is obviously the biggest challenge.

I think most of us are stuck in a vicious circle of problems that the body can't fix on it's own. Sometimes, in milder CFS cases, fixing something like the Krebs cycle, or methylation, or nutrient deficiencies is enough for the body to get out of the vicious circle and fix the root cause. But often it is not. No point, just thinking out loud.
 

u&iraok

Senior Member
Messages
427
Location
U.S.
TL;DR: Went from about 20% of normal functioning to about 70-90% (100% being very healthy level of endurance and energy).

Very happy for you! I would strongly advise you not to overdo it now that you're feeling better. I've heard story after story of people with about the same percentages you mention overdoing it, crashing and not recovering.

I got better after the acute phase doing a lot of the things you did and more, glad that I recognized the symptoms of ME/CFS right away and went into action to defeat it. But then, encouraged, I went back to my exercise routine and got worse. It took years to get better from that--but I'm not as good as I was before I began exercising again--and now I guard what I have with my life! Rest, rest, rest.
 

u&iraok

Senior Member
Messages
427
Location
U.S.
I know it's going to be hard for a 29 year old man to rest! But please keep it in the back of your mind. I don't want to read your relapse story as well. Too sad!