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Positive Thinking, The Secret, Huna....

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by Joyful Lady, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Feeling guilt is not healthy so a viewpoint that takes this perspective would not be recommended or encouraged. In fact, I would encourage looking for a viewpoint that feels better.

    I have not said, not would I say "if you stop believing you are ill you will get better." In fact, that would be delusional. It would not address any negativity that may be impacting immune function. If an illness is exacerbated by negative thinking it was not the negative thinking about the illness that got it started -- that puts one with a chicken and an egg.

    It is more about negative viewpoints, generalizations, holding onto anger, refusing to forgive, feeling guilt or shame, spite or other emotions that are really communication from your emotional sensory system to take action -- and, again, I am not blaming the individuals -- society teaches us to behave in these ways. When a depressed person gets angry people usually try to suppress the anger rather than walk them through it to better-feeling emotions -- anger is a better emotion than depression but it is more difficult to deal with (for others) so society and families will often do things that push the person back down to depression rather than helping them move on to better-feeling emotions.

    This entire conversation (thread) might be possible if we agreed on some definitions but in this case things are not defined well enough to communicate clearly. Some of the things people believe are being said are due to this lack of clear defining.

    For example, the concept that one "should" feel guilty because any aspect of their illness (what ever illness - not just the one this Forum is about) might be due to negative emotions. They should give themselves a break, they are human, after all. We are already perfect in our imperfections. Beating oneself up for not having done something perfectly is not healthy. And, doubly so when it is not something they know about and in most cases, were taught in direct opposition to. And, it is certainly not saying that illness is "all in the mind." It is saying there is a mind-body connection and that learning how the brain works and how beliefs impact experiences and adopting more positive beliefs to allow more positive experiences (see my post regarding beliefs about the opposite gender posted in the last hour for clarity about what I am referring to here). Feeling guilty about having an illness is in direct contradiction of finding more positive perspectives.

    Another person posted that she had spent years attempting to figure out what beliefs were harming her -- that is another thing that is often done and which I would never recommend. Since a belief is really just a thought you have thought repeatedly if an area of life is not going well one can decide "what beliefs would serve me here" and then begin a process of moving toward that desired belief -- baby steps might be necessary if the current belief is very different.

    For example, there have been many women in my experience, some working alongside me who believed that opportunities were closed to them because of their gender. There were other women (eventually, myself included as I deliberately change my beliefs) who did not hold this same belief. I saw, repeatedly, the opportunities go to the women who believed it was possible and never to those who believed they were held back by their gender. In one year I was offered a position I had lamented ever receiving and a 64% raise. I did not apply for the position, they contacted me -- after I changed my belief about what I was ready for and worth. Later I set up a call to speak with a lady who was on several boards. The purpose of my call was to pick her brain about steps I could take to "someday" be ready to sit on a board. I did not believe I was "ready." During the conversation, this person who I held in great esteem, told me she believed I was ready and the conversation turned to one about how to get your first seat on a board. I was so pumped after that call. I fully believed I was ready. I was busy and took no action over the next few weeks and then, I was laid off. When they changed their mind and wanted to retain me I was able to get a seat on the board. I would never have asked for that if I had not had the belief that I was ready. I would not have had the belief that I was ready if I had not first had the belief that someday I might be board material and set up the call that improved my belief on the topic.

    Three years after I began learning about this (and I did not read one book, I have two book cases over six feet tall, filled with books that run the gamut from religion (many types), spirituality, positive psychology, quantum physics, resilience, various practices -- such as mindfulness and more. There are so many books that contain false and mis-leading information -- a single book is woefully inadequate. I understand from some of the posts that reading is a problem for some so studying (I did not just read - I studied) might be difficult. My apologies, I digressed, three years after I began learning about and applying this information I was leaving Dubai with a 4 year old passport. I thought they were not going to let me out of the country. They accused me of using my Mom's passport -- the change in my appearance was that striking. I had to get a new passport earlier this year and I wrote a letter and sent it with my new photo to attempt to explain why I look younger now than I did in the old passport photo. I literally feel 14 years younger than I did 14 years ago.

    I have pointed out in many of the posts in this thread things people have understood from some of the books that do not understand the science behind much of this that are not beneficial.

    An understanding that your brain filters information you receive in your conscious mind based on your beliefs, expectations, emotional stance (usual emotional set point) and your focus is really the first step. It is pretty easy to see, if you talk to people with different types of lives, that this plays out -- I will refer again to my post regarding my beliefs about the men in my life and to the one about the type of position I could obtain at work. If an area of life is not going well (don't think about the illness -- look at relationships, finances, career, hobbies, food -- people have billions of differing beliefs about food, and recreation, or respect. Respect is a fun one to play with. I sometimes have students get up one day and put themselves in a mindset of having their bank account cleaned out by the partner that just dumped them (I add in some more details) and then go out wearing that sort of attitude and see how the world treats you -- see the people who don't even see you, the people who don't politely hold the door open, go pretend you are going to buy a car with that demeanor, etc. Play with it but keep that attitude on for a few hours. Then, the next weekend, do the opposite, pretend you are famous and well loved, fabulously wealthy and very altruistic and kind and loving and important. Then go out and see how people treat you as you repeat the places you went the prior weekend. The difference is amazing. A different person showed up and the world treated the person the way the person presented them self. So if an individual believes people do not and won't respect him or her, unless the other person has a very strong belief in treating everyone with respect, a stronger belief than the person who expects not to be treated with respect, the person will get what they expect with regard to respect. On the science side a review of the literature on mirror neurons adds interesting aspects to this topic.

    Again, I am not saying that if you do not feel respected you are to blame in a "let's point the finger" sort of way. If that has been your experience, your belief could have sprung from many (or multiple) sources. I am saying that if such a belief exists, if you work to change your belief. Perhaps at first saying "some people treat me with respect" and then perhaps adding "a lot of people would like to treat me with respect" and gradually moving toward a belief that you are respected and that others naturally show you respect -- or at least in that direction. We have all seen those individuals who demand respect, not out of blustering but out of a quite assurance they project. I enjoy people watching and it is interesting to watch the different ways waiters and waitresses treat customers. I like to observe people as they come in and guess how things will go and then watch. I have increased my ability to accurately estimate things. For example, years ago it was always the man who the check was given to in a restaurant. Today it is not always the man. A really astute waitress, if watched over a period of time will give the check to the man or woman with seeming randomness but if you watch closely you will see that she almost always gives it to the one who actually pays the bill. You can hear she is not asking. She has read the people and the relationship and is probably not even conscious of doing so. She just feels on some level which one she should give it to and does so.
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    The idea that unconscious thought patterns can cause disease is based on a logical fallacy, the psychogenic fallacy. There are two papers by Sykes that address this, and I wrote a blog on it some time back. There is no disagreement that the mind can influence health. It is equally obvious that the mind is a function of the body, at least to those with a science background. Depression looks to be an autoimmune disease in some cases. It is not really a psychiatric illness for this subgroup, its a physical illness with psychiatric symptoms. PTSD is probably resulting from traumatic structural changes to the brain. It is therefore not a psychiatric illness, but a neurological one.

    The whole notion of psychogenic induced physical disease is based on more than a century of errors and fallacies. The mind influeces body, ergo the mind causes disease ... thats a logical fallacy. We can't find the physical cause of disease, ergo its has a psychogenic cause ... another fallacy.

    In fact I do not believe mind exists at all. I think, in all probability, mind is a convenient description of brain function. We can talk to our brain, whether you call it thought or verbal talk, but its just one more input to specific regions of the brain. Its not magical. So it can have some impact, but it can't have miraculous impact. The notion is therefore a superstition, not science. That does not mean that it cannot be right in some cases, only that we have no substantive evidence of it.

    Bye, Alex
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  3. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    I would love to see how Joyful Lady would handle this line of thinking if she got CFS. I would never actually wish this illness on anyone, but as soon as someone like this isn't lucky anymore, this "manifesting-from-positive-thinking" might not be so affirming and validating anymore either.

    It's easy to believe in something like this when good things happen to you. And makes it even easier to judge other people when bad things happen to them. But when bad things happen to you, it might not be so easy.
    warriorseekspeace likes this.
  4. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    If PTSD is caused by post traumatic structural changes to the brain do you have the same explanation for post traumatic growth (also called adversarial growth)? What causes one to go to PTSD and another to benefit from post adversarial growth?

    I will agree to disagree regarding the mind being just a physical aspect of the body -- I am not a proponent of the Cartesian split nor do I believe that we (and all the other life on this planet) were accidentally build by random mutation. If one looks there are too many documented cases that show the mind goes far beyond the physical limitations of the body.
  5. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Want to trade? Try daily molestation from age 9 to 18, throw in a stranger rape at 15 and two abusive (physically and emotionally spouses), oh, and I almost forgot to mention a gang beating in 8th grade and two more in high school. Would you consider that an even trade? Or would it only be an even trade if you also got to get the advantage of all the work I have done to understand how a brain works and to change my life for the better and become a beneficiary of post adversarial growth? I bet you would not trade if you could not also get that aspect of it.
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    There is no evidence mind exists. None. Its a superstition, and a commonly held belief. We used to believe there were canals on Mars too. If someone finds a way to test for mind (which means they also have to define it) then that would be different - but they can't at present.

    I am not a Cartesian dualist. I am a Monist who recognizes that reference to mind is a convenient simplification in conversation and language. I plan on writing a blog on this at some point.

    People learn. People can learn from adversity - that in no way is a good example of your point. Most of us here have learnt from adversity. When we learn it changes the structure of the brain - but it doesn't rewrite the whole body. PTG is also not well understood.

    I also have a background in genetics. Its easy to show that evolution could have led to us. The power of evolutionary processes is often under-estimated by those who have not looked closely at the math. So this does not prove that we evolved, it shows we could have and so is the simplest explanation - fewer ad hoc hypotheses are required.

    One of the possibilities, neither proved nor disproved, is that life evolved elsewhere and arrived on Earth. Its unlikely, but I can't rule it out.

    So can I rule out a creator and creation? No. What I can say is there is no unproblematic evidence of creation. I go with the evidence as much as I can. If someone can prove creation, great. Until then its just another unproven hypothesis, and one that requires many ad hoc supporting hypotheses.

    Bye, Alex
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  7. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    You don't know anything about CFS if you would propose something like that and list off those sorts of things. A lot of people have dealt with all those kinds of challenges in their early life, and then had everything else taken away by CFS.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Just World Hypothesis?

    I am sorry that you have a troubled past and have a lot of bad things happen to you. Stay a while on these forums and you will see similarly horrific things.

    Bye, Alex
  9. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    You are the one who stated "I would love to see how Joyful Lady would handle this line of thinking if she got CFS." and "It's easy to believe in something like this when good things happen to you. And makes it even easier to judge other people when bad things happen to them. But when bad things happen to you, it might not be so easy."

    My response did not claim I know anything about CFS -- I made an inquiry since you seemed to want knowledge of how I would respond to adverse circumstances. What I listed is some of my personal life experiences - not a random list; just to be perfectly clear.
  10. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    I'm going to turn your line of thinking against you so you can maybe get a sense of what you're claiming in this thread. But of course, I would never go onto an abuse forum and make the following statements.

    I have never been molested daily because I know how to interact with people better than that.
    I have never been raped because I know how to read people and protect myself better than that.
    I have never been in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship because I would never put myself in that situation.
    I have never been beaten by a gang because I know how to deal with people better than that. i have a way with people.
  11. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Thanks Alex.

    Not "Just World Hypothesis" at all. Merely making the point, because White assumed I had lived a life free of adversary (as many often assume about me if they do not know my past -- even those who know it tend to forget because I do not have a victim mentality or victim presence). I once had a shrink ask me how I had managed the things I had managed because "people like me live in boxes under bridges" in reference to my past. I have had some adversity -- certainly not more than anyone else - but significant enough for my thriving to be pretty unbelievable to anyone who knows my history. That is one of the things that makes me so certain that this knowledge is beneficial. We are all different and unique but something so beneficial to my experience could be beneficial to others. As stated elsewhere, it is not just my own experiences, I have read two bookcases about human thriving and worked with many clients as well as a large group I belong to (more than 38 countries and millions of people) who have applied much of this beneficially to their own lives.
  12. Dainty

    Dainty Senior Member

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    ...and now it comes out.
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  13. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    It is not about reading or interacting with people, it is about what you are a vibrational match to which is more complicated but based on your patterns of thought.

    Today I am not at risk of any of those things because I have changed my vibration.

    Statistically a woman who is raped becomes 7x more likely to be raped. When we are raped we feel like victims, we feel powerless and a lack of control. That vibration is a match to someone who is looking for an easy target. Self Defense classes touch on this by speaking about "appearing confident" but pretending (inauthentic confidence) is no defense because it is the deeper level that communicates.

    I can see very clearly how and why I was a match to all of those things at those times, I remember enough of my thoughts and emotions. I can also say with great confidence that I am no longer a match to anything like that. At the time I did not understand but as I learned what I now know it all made sense, all that and much more -- both positive and negative aspects of my life.

    But that is not the same thing as illness.

    With the right knowledge one can be confident that they are not a match to such crimes -- fear and feelings of powerlessness are vibrations that match; authentic empowerment, confidence, sureness are not a match.

    Illness is more difficult to be sure of and to know when it is coming.

    I would not make those statements about illness in the way I would about crimes.

    I would say, about illness, that learning about the mind and learning to have a positive focus - perhaps I should define this more clearly for clarity -- a focus that you can rather than a focus that you can't - about your goals, your desires, about solutions, about your dreams and then not forcing action - especially if your body is not ready for action - but a mindset where ideas and alternatives are welcomed rather than shut out with "I can't (fill in the blank" thinking. (and I understand that some people with this illness do the "I can" thing and overtax themselves but the descriptions posted in this thread also indicate they are ignoring communication from their body to rest or stop when they overtax themselves -- emotions are a form of bodily communication. see: www.emotionalsentience.com.

    When the body communicates I listen. When I am tired I rest. When I want to move I move. When I am hungry I eat. When I am thirsty I drink. When I am in a less than desirable mood I do one of over 50 processes to find a better-feeling mood and stabilize there. The body is the house I live in and I treat it with respect by listening to what it is asking of me. Overriding messages from the body is not suggested or recommended. Our bodies are not like us, they do not ask for things they do not need -- well, maybe a cookie, on occasion but maybe they needed that oatmeal. Addictions are recognized as an exception to this but I am not going to get to that level on this topic and I assume the members of this forum are not addicts and for the sake of simplicity I will expand addictions to anything addictive -- not just drugs. I am referring to basic needs - such as leaving environments that are hostile, adequate nutrition, food, rest, movement, water, etc.
  14. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Is experience a problem?
  15. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    You once again talk in circles and circles....never really addressing what we here on this site are dealing with on a daily basis... I have met some of the most POSITIVE people EVER here on this site...in all reality if we were not positive we would not be HERE...as many many patients with ME/CFS simply take their own lives because they lose HOPE... Most of us here are the most positive people you will ever meet - considering the daily HELL we live in. If you can write pages and pages of your mumbo jumbo about relationships, childhood depression, and everything else that doesn't ever pertain to our particular illness, I don't know why you are so timid as to not answer my simple question here on this forum...

    Maybe you will end up being one of the lucky millions who have this devastating illness and you can check back in and tell us how you are focused on your moisturizer seeping into your skin! What you must not know is many of us have skin that hurts, so I guess we should just focus on our hair growing because that doesn't hurt ... however many of us are losing it by the handfuls.

    We are all here very much supporting and lifting one another UP... not sharing some happy horseshit theory on STINKIN THINKIN being the reason for our illness.

    Can focusing on our BLESSINGS and be in GRATITUDE as much as possible help us to cope with the daily agony? Of course, and we all do our best to guide out thoughts there - even tho all the mind can absorb and project - the majority of the time is PAIN, Unbearable Fatigue, and relentless flu like symptoms. We are the TOUGHEST people on the planet, I am sure of that!

    All the best to you...
  16. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    I couldn't have said it better!!! Wow ... if she only really "knew" us!!!
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  17. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    When you figure out how to think stealthy Lyme Bacteria and Viruses out of the body...let me know. I once had an aquaintance tell me that BELIEF CREATES BIOLOGY...and he had a massive heart attack a year later.... hmmmm wonder if still thinks that??? Karma does eventually catch up to those who "judge" is all I know.
    Valentijn likes this.
  18. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    "Joyful Lady" I hope that you have the self awareness to see that your posts here are so far not having a positive effect, and in my opinion the lack of empathy you have shown is just creating negativity. Negativity that didn't exist here before this thread was created.
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  19. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    My clients are not sick people who are coming for cures. They are people who want to thrive. I am not here seeking clients. I do not "seek" clients. They find me. Your world is painted by your beilefs; just as everyone's is - that does not make their beliefs accurate. That does not negate that experience with hundreds of individuals does not give me valid references and examples that help me explain concepts and my level of experience.

    I know you are happy someone who once upset you had a heart attack and died. Since I know karma is hogwash what is the relationship between the two? If it makes you feel better to believe he was somehow 'repaid' for the emotional wounds he inflicted on you (or your perception allowed -- you did not have to give his words any credence - that was your choice). If someone said you had green hair would you believe them? Why believe anything another says if it dose not resonate with your own internal knowing? Give yourself more credit and others less.
  20. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    Hey all if you want to know more about this wack job check out the link below... A visit with a person of HIGH STRANGENESS.... now it is all makin sense...

    To put it in a nutshell her belief is that WE HAVE CREATED OUR REALITIES......and that we don't get well because our "emotional system" is not ALLOWING it....

    I never wish BAD on anyone....but I would sure loooooove to see her THINK her way out of this...

    Oh and BTW she thinks we are all just ANGRY beings!!!!! Oh damn..... I can't believe I have wasted so much time and energy on this lunacy...
    [​IMG]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gaAqmCYd...
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