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No Longer Naive in the Ways of The Beast
After having lived for years with ME/CFS, Jody Smith learned there's more to this beast of an illness than she realized, and that what might help one person may not help others ...
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Positive Thinking, The Secret, Huna....

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by Joyful Lady, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    What if

    What if you don't know what you don't know?
    "Round about the accredited and orderly facts of every science there
    ever floats a sort of dust-cloud of exceptional observations, of
    occurrences minute and irregular and seldom met with, which it always
    proves more easy to ignore than to attend to... Anyone will renovate his
    science who will steadily look after the irregular phenomena, and when
    science is renewed, its new formulas often have more of the voice of the
    exceptions in them than of what were supposed to be the rules."
    - William James

    "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
    greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
    conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
    thread, into the fabric of their lives." -Tolstoy


    "It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative
    scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the
    preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When
    this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their
    prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them."
    - Arthur C. Clarke, 1963

    I do not know the answers you seek. I do wish you well. I do know that many illnesses are cured by shifts in thought processes. One book I can recommend (Remarkable
    Recoveries) describes many
    case studies of individuals sent home to die, some with only 24 hours expected and
    many with less than 3 months. A common factor with many of the unexplainable
    healings was a shift (to a more empowered mindset) in perspective.

    I also know that positive psychology has shown that the risk of developing heart disease is 50% less in individuals who are chronically positively focused and optimistic.
    Positivity and Optimism also have preventative impacts on cancers, Type II diabetes,
    stroke and many more illnesses, including the common cold and flu. It has been clearly
    and repeatedly proven that our immune systems function better when we are happier.
    So, with what I do know, from copious research across many fields, is that the mind
    (state of mind) does have an impact on the body. This is not about casting blame or
    saying it is "all in the mind" because the thoughts of the mind clearly impact what
    happens to the body. I also know that much of the way we are taught to think and
    things society encourages are counter-productive to what we now know about what are the healthiest ways to think. I am not now, or ever, interested in fixing blame. That is
    not going in the direction of solving problems. What I am interested in is
    cross-pollination of ideas, concepts, and theories from diverse fields that may impact
    one another.
    There is no shame in manifesting an illness in ones body by the thoughts one thinks or
    perspectives one has assumed, whether the mind was the sole cause or just a
    contributing factor (as in an immune system weakened by negativity). It is not as if
    there is even one person alive on the planet that has figured it out fully -- what
    perspectives promote health and which are counter to it. We are all products of our
    environments to some extent or another. Some are learning to question many of the
    false premises we were taught in school about how things work -- not taught
    incorrectly to fool us but because they did not know better at that time.
    We think we know so much now but there is so much we do not know. Some of the
    circulatory systems in the body were only discovered in the last 50 years. The
    emotional response system is just now struggling to be recognized in the scientific
    community - I hope a paper will soon be published on it.
    We are far from knowing all.
  2. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    That's true, but what would be shameful would be to lump together patients under a diagnosis like CFS, and then assume that their cognitions and behaviour should be medicalised and managed as part of a pragmatic pursuit of functionality. Those responsible for promoting such an approach should feel deeply ashamed of themselves and how they have behaved.

    Some people are so disinterested in engaging in an honest pursuit of truth that they are willing to distort their own mind in order to pursue 'positivity', 'functionality' or 'optimism' in order to hide themselves from some of the hardships of life. I think this is shameful too, but not nearly as bad as a biopsychosocial approach to illness which can be used to justify encouraging all those with health problems to engage in such intellectual cowardice.

    Pragmatism and 'positive' views of the world are often used to justify and ignore the suffering of others - I think that these cognitive distortions should be guarded and fought against rather than embraced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

    edit: You didn't provide any references, but your claims about the benefits of positivity are still rather contentious. Personally, I'm not that concerned either way, but here's an example of an opposing view: http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/51945/most-false.pdf The evidence really doesn't seem very good either way. Better to not worry about it, and just do one's best to think reasonably and pursue truth imo.
    warriorseekspeace and Merry like this.
  3. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Here is the citation for the meta-analysis of 200 independent studies that found that positivity and optimism reduce the risk of developing cardiovascular disease by 50%. The researcher are from Harvard. Boehm, J. K., & Jubzansky, L.D., (2012).The heart’s content: The association between positive psychological well-being and cardiovascular health. Psychological Bulletin

    This indicates that psychological distress increases the risk for BC - other studies show that positivity provides a protective effect. I have not seen research that takes women (or any gender) that has suffered negative life events and provided some with positivity training and monitored long -term with a control group to see if the occurrence of BC is less in those with intervention but I would be not only my hat but my house that they would find the hypothesis true.
    MC Cancer 2008, Ronit Peled, Devora Carmil, Orly Siboni-Samocha and Ilana Shoham-Vardi. Breast cancer, psychological distress and life events among young women. BMC Cancer 8:245 doi:10.1186/1471-2407-8-245

    This one is very interesting - How does a nurturing Mom buffer against later life health issues if not in the way we perceive the world?
    Association for Psychological Science (2011, September 24), Pathways to Resilience: Maternal Nurturance as a Buffer Against the Effects of Childhood Poverty on Metabolic Syndrome at Midlife.

    Hirshberg, Caryle and Barasch, Marc Ian (1995), Remarkable Recovery: What extraordinary healings tell us about getting and staying well. Riverhead Books, NY, NY

    Seligman, Martin E. P, (2011). Flourish: A Visionary New Understanding of Happiness and Well-Being, Free Press, pp 167 & 171

    Seligman, Martin E. P, (2006). Learned Optimism. Simon & Schuster, NY, NY. Originally published 1991


    Fredrickson, Ph.D., Barbara, (2010). Positivity, Three Rivers Press, North Carolina

    Fredrickson, B. L., Tugade, M. M., Waugh, C. E., & Larkin, G. R. (2003, February). What good are positive emotions in crisis? A prospective study of resilience and emotions following the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11th, 2001., Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 84(2), 365-376. doi: 10.1037/0022-3514.84.2.365

    Fredrickson, Ph.D., Barbara L., Sotiropoulos, Ioannis, Catania, Caterina, Pinto, Lucilia G., Silva, Rui, Pollerberg, G. Elizabeth, Takashima, Akihiko, Sousa, Nuno, and Almeida, Osborne F. X. The Value of Positive Emotions. Stress Acts Cumulatively to Precipitate Alzheimer's Disease-Like Tau Pathology and Cognitive Deficits. Journal of Neuroscience, May 25, 2011; 31(21):7840-7847 DOI:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0730-11.2011

    Fredrickson B. L. & Losada M. F. (2005). Positive affect and the complex dynamics of human flourishing. American Psychologist, 60, 678-686.

    Fredrickson, B. L. (2001), The role of positive emotions in positive psychology: The broaden-and-build theory, American Psychologist 56: 218-26

    As I read posts in this thread it seemed that the "baby was being thrown out with the bath water." There is so much we do not understand and if there are aspects that an individual can manage (say increase immune function through increasing positivity) while they wait for scientists to figure out the rest it certainly would not hurt to try. Everyone is, of course, free to do as they please. There are not many individuals in the world, so far, who have crossed all the disciplines that point to positivity as helpful, from biochemistry, to positive psychology, to neuroscience, to psycho-immunology, to quantum physics.

    And yes, I have seen some rather vapid arguments that say things like "anxiety is good for us - we need it to motivate us." That is true, to the degree that discontent with the status quo will inspire action, but the evidence is very clear that long-term anxiety is not healthy. The anxiety is communication from within that says "Make a change here" on which we should act. If we were a one-celled organism we would respond immediately - they do when their environment is less than ideal - as do many other animals and bugs and birds; they don't hang around and complain about an environment that feels bad -- if the forest is on fire they fly, crawl and run away. Humans will "Keep a stiff upper lip" to see how much discomfort they can endure before they take action - some of us pride ourselves on just how "tough" we are - how much we can endure before we can't take it anymore. The research on our emotional guidance system shows that emotions were designed to guide us to better-feeling situations - it is just that social norms have grown up that contradict that internal guidance. Not only do our emotions feel better when we respond to our emotional guidance, right down to biological tests, enzymes, immune system and other markers the scientists like to test -- all go more where we want them when we respond appropriately to our emotional guidance.

    Oh, the paper on emotional guidance is available here: www.emotionalsentience.com. There are 10 pages of citations so it takes a while to digest unless you are very steeped in the sciences.

    As I said in my earlier post, I wish the best for everyone here. If I have added something of value for anyone, then all the better.
  4. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    I want to comment further on this comment "Pragmatism and 'positive' views of the world are often used to justify and ignore the suffering of others - I think that these cognitive distortions should be guarded and fought against rather than embraced:" Have you followed it out to its natural conclusions? Can another's unhappiness help your sickness or misery? Can another's unhappiness hurt your health or increase your misery?

    On the "Can another's unhappiness help your illness or misery" I would say a definitive "No". Let's say the individual in question is working on a cure for your illness. It is very clear that cognitive abilities increase with better mood and decrease with less desirable mood. There are many studies mentioned in the citations given earlier but there is also a common example. It is not uncommon for someone under extreme emotional distress to put their head in their hands and say something like "Give me a minute. I can't think." Cognitive ability moves along a continuum that move in the same direction as emotion. Very low emotions make it obvious but it is also true that someone who is frustrated does not think (see solutions as well or see the big picture as well) as someone who feels hopeful (which is a higher (better-feeling) emotion. In fact, due to the way our brains function, the pessimistic that does not think there is a solution has a brain that will filter out solutions even if they are right in front of her because her brain filters out things that are contrary to belief. That is why we are all so convinced that our worldview is accurate. Our worldview is accurate for us, because of the filtering system in the brain.

    To extend this argument out it would be like saying "I have been healthy for 50 years and there are many ill people, I will agree to be ill for a while so someone else can enjoy health." It does not work that way.

    The only way another's unhappiness helps someone who is unhappy is they do a comparison or feel vindicated at another's misfortune but that backfires. Those who compare themselves to others for their own good feelings are building their emotional health on a very shaky platform and the research shows pretty clearly that, health-wise, such individuals only do well if all other around them are doing about the same as they are. If they are surrounded by diversity with some people better off and some significantly better off those who make such comparisons have adverse health impacts with significant adverse mortality. I could go find the studies but if you Google scientific studies on health impact of disparate incomes and another search for studies of homogeneous incomes I am sure you will find them.

    Does another's positive emotions help my health and misery? I would say a definitive "Yes." Again, if the individual is trying to find a cure (for illness or any other social ill) their ability to find solutions is bolstered by their hopeful stance. The work by Barbara L. Fredrickson, Ph.D. speaks most directly to this point. In Positivity she also addresses how prejudice is reduced when individuals are happier and increases when they are less happy. I think less prejudice (of any sort) in this world is a positive outcome worth pursuing. Of course, that is my worldview. In fact, the individual is more likely to be working on trying to find solutions to social ills and illnesses as well as being more altruistic and a better corporate citizen based on the research. I believe the prior citations cover this in adequate detail as well.

    One of the first things people do when they learn how to feel better is develop a strong desire for others to also feel better. Their actions and words toward this goal become part of who they are. I have seen this personally innumerable times and there are also studies that reflect these findings.

    Personally I feel 14 years younger than I felt 14 years ago. The only change I have made is to develop a chronic bias toward looking at situations in the best possible light.

    When I write about peace I often look at this same outlook. Many people wait to put peace in their hearts until others do it. Peace can only come one heart at a time. Politicians and soldiers cannot bring true peace. True peace is P E A C E. If the truce is declared and the soldiers have all gone home but the hearts still have hate and bitterness that is not peace. In the USA we fought a war over 100 years ago for which we still do not have peace. There is still bitterness and people still have "sides" they take. There are many who are at peace over that war but there are many who are not so true peace over that war has not arrived.

    In the same vein, if no one should be happy until everyone is, who will be first? Would everyone, in one spectacular moment decide "Enough with this misery, on the count of 3 we will all be happy -- it will be OK to be happy because we will all be happy" And, if that is the case, if no one should be happy until everyone is -- why don't we all just decide that the time is now? Why wait?

    Why does someone want a cure? Because they believe they will feel better if they have it -- not just physically but emotionally as well. At the root of all we desire, peace, harmony, love, or career, or possessions, is the belief that in the having of our desire we will feel better. Feeling better is the goal.

    Saying "I can't feel better until they find a cure" is no different than saying "I can't feel better (be happy) until {Choose all that apply - individuals will have different perspectives ........ the perfect spouse/perfect health/the perfect job/the successful book/the perfect home/the perfect body/perfect eyes/perfect teeth/perfect children/the right education/etc. etc. etc. Someone with an illness, any illness, can feel hopeful or despair (or other permutations). They get to choose how they feel by what they choose to focus upon. Viktor Frankl is an example of a man who made such a choice in quite dire circumstances. Frankl, Viktor (2006) Man's Search for Meaning, Beacon Press, Originally Published 1946.

    It has been my experience that those who develop positive views do not ignore the plight of others but neither do they use those plights, things over which they have no control, as excuses to feel awful. It has also been my experience that some of the most magnificent survivors of traumas and reprehensible things can find that positive viewpoint and once found, they do their utmost to uplift others who are traveling a similar path. I know many personally who fit this description.
  5. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I'm genuinely interested to know how quantum physics points to positive thinking as being helpful.

    I deleted the rest of my post, as that sounds much more fascinating than anything else I was going to say.

    edit: extra post to reply to.

    Thanks for the references. As I said and I'm sure your aware, this is still a contested area, and often the evidence we have is not terribly compelling either way, with many potential confounding factors, etc. I could pull out some studies critical of positive psychology, but I doubt we're going to be able to solve this here, and as I said, personally I'm personally not terribly concerned either way.



    We're not and we should not be.



    You're going to have to walk me through that one, because I do not see that as an extension of any argument of mine.



    Me too. But I see positivity, and all other cognitive distortions, as prejudices.

    I think that you've really misunderstood my point though, as a lot of your last post really had nothing to do with what I believe or said, so I do not know how I can best respond to it. I'm not saying that people have a responsibility to be miserable, I'm saying that they have a responsibility to try to think clearly. I'm pretty happy most of the time despite my ill health, although I think (hope) that is because I happen to be quite lucky in a number of ways rather than because I have adopted some distorted view of reality.

    Earlier, when you mentioned the vapid argument "anxiety is good for us - we need it to motivate us" did you think that that is anything like what I had said?

    I'm a bit worried that your "chronic bias to looking at everything in the best possible light" has affected you badly. It may be more positive for you to think that I am making these straw-man arguments, but this is really not the case.
    Merry likes this.
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Here is something you might find interesting Joyful Lady. In Peter White's Biopsychosocial Medicine they thoroughly discredit, to their satisfaction, the notion of positive thinking, at least in respect to the problems they have investigated.

    One of the pitfalls of positive thinking is that it can blind people to problems, which then go unsolved.Its a philosophy, not a universal solution. There are also variations on it, from Buddhism to those who live by the Happiness Principle. Buddhists don't have to be positive to be joyful.

    That many bright colours make your text difficult to read, some will simply not read it.

    Bye, Alex
  7. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    I have given this subject MUCH thought - as i always work to try to live in GRATITUDE and Glass half full....even with 35 years of being ill. However, I do feel that my sunny little disposition has not served me with this illness... Doctors see me smiling, makeup on, positive and hopeful - and have never really taken me seriously. What I tell them is happening to me daily - does not match what they are seeing. I know the only reason I am still alive today is that I do my best to focus on what is positive in my life...being a true believe that what you focus on gets bigger. But, now looking back I wish I would have crawled out of bed, threw on my sweats, no makeup, and walked into my doctor appts negative and in tears. Maybe I wouldn't be this far along with this illness???

    Oh well...that is hindsite. Thank GOD I finally found Dr. Kogelnik who looks at my labs and knows what he sees is all an illusion.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Jacque, something else that is a problem with positive thinking, is that it can induce someone to ignore PEM/PENE. This can potentially lead to relapse, even catastrophic relapse. I like positive thinking but only when it is balanced by practical and rational thinking. Bye, Alex
  9. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I think it's actually quite negative to place so much emphasis upon positivity and trying to look at things in the best possible light.

    I find that often I can choose to adopt a playful and enquiring disposition that makes even very simple tasks and sensations enjoyable - no positivity required. I cannot imagine being happy if I knew that I had chosen to adopt a biased view of the world. So much of the pleasure I get from life comes from finding and then trying to pick apart and avoid biases of thought.
  10. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    I don't think anybody here would dispute that.

    But I hope you don't mean to suggest that all medical research should therefore cease, and that all sick and disabled people should concentrate instead on curing themselves through the power of their own minds.

    All that ME/CFS patients are asking for is that their physical illness be respected, researched and treated, just like every other physical illness. We object to those psychiatrists who extend the points you have made above and have used them to prevent the MRC from funding any attempts to conduct biomedical research into our illness. Positive thinking can only take us so far - here, we know that from experience - and just like cancer patients and AIDS patients, we need scientific research and medical treatments as well. Whether you know it or not, the theories of the UK psychiatrists are based on the unproven belief that ME/CFS is primarily a psychiatric disorder ("merely a belief"), and whether you know it or not, the weight of scientific evidence has been solidly against that hypothesis for many years.

    It seems from your post that you have an interest in the development of emotional and psychological therapeutic tools for physical illnesses. Fine. But do you believe that these should entirely replace all physical medicine, all medical research, and all treatments for all known illnesses? Do you believe that ME/CFS should be singled out as an illness undeserving of such research and treatment? If not, then I think you need to understand that this is what this debate is about, and not the abstract concept that the state of mind can have an impact on the body.
    Bob, warriorseekspeace, Nielk and 5 others like this.
  11. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    AGREED... I once had a man tell me BELIEF CREATES BIOLOGY..... He later had a HEART ATTACK.... If I was a beeeoch....I would have called him and said....Wow....lets explore that Belief CREATES Biology statement you laid out to me a few years back...making me feel like all my illness was psychological!!!!! I think in many cases I have "thought" my way into thinking I was like everyone else...and have paid a very heavy price...as you mentioned.
    warriorseekspeace and Merry like this.
  12. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Fritz-Albert Popp was working to find a cure for cancer and his research led to the discovery that photons emitted by living systems were more coherent than anything he had ever seen. In quantum physics, quantum coherence means that subatomic particles are able to cooperate. The subatomic waves or particles know about each other and are highly linked by bands of common electromagnetic fields, so they can communicate together. Popp continued his research on both healthy and unhealthy subjects eventually concluding that good health was a state of perfect subatomic communication (coherence) and ill health was a state where communication breaks down. We are ill when are waves our out of sync.

    In quantum physics when two waves are in phase (snyc), and overlap each other (technically referred to as 'interference') the combined amplitude of the waves is greater than the sum of the parts; there is a compounding effect. When one wave is peaking and the other is dipping (out of sync) they tend to cancel each other out, a process called "destructive interference".

    Imagine that our thoughts are waves. A healthy individual will have more coherent and positive thoughts. In other words, they will be consistently looking for solutions, and will believe solutions exist Their waves are in sync, combining and amplifying one another.

    On the other hand, someone who is less healthy will want the solutions but their negative bias will create destructive interference with the desires, thereby canceling out the thoughts of positive desires. They want something but do not believe they can have it.

    It is also possible to have coherence in negative thoughts as evinced by an individual whose thoughts are hopeless and thus experiences a downward spiral. Introducing thoughts that cause destructive interference to the downward spiraling thoughts can slow it down and as the positive thoughts increase upward motion can be seen.

    Three examples of thoughts and their coherence, or lack thereof, are shown below. The first example is of someone who lacks resilience and is living a pretty mean existence. Their thoughts are coherent and therefore amplified, but they are coherent in a very negative way.

    Thoughts
    Direction

    Every time I think something is finally working out it crashes.
    ä
    I can't remember the last time something worked out really well for me.
    ä
    I might as well stop trying. It never works out for me.
    ä
    I must be cursed. What is the point?
    ä
    I don't know what to do. I can't do anything well.
    ä
    Life is awful and then you die.
    ä


    In this second example the random, unfocused, and conflicting thoughts of someone who is not very resilient cancel one another out. This is a far more common situation than coherent thought. It is characteristic of a person whose life seems to be moving in circles.

    Thoughts
    Direction

    I really hope this will turn out OK (thought without any real feeling of hope).
    È
    Sometimes things turn out OK.
    Ç
    Maybe my brother will help me out (hopeful but no real faith).
    æ
    Bad things happen in three's; what is next?.
    ä
    At least I have people in my life who will always love me no matter what.
    ã
    Every time I think things are going well something bad happens.
    ä


    In the following example, of thoughts from a resilient mindset, the coherence of positive thoughts make the individual highly resilient.

    Thoughts
    Direction

    Every time I think something bad has happened to me it turns out to be good when I get a clearer view of it.
    ã
    I wonder what the silver lining will be here?
    Ç
    I know there is a solution. There always is. I wonder what it is.
    ã
    Things always work out well for me. I don't have to know the ending to know this will work out well, too.
    ã
    I wonder what new things I will learn because of this?
    ã
    It is fun to solve problems.
    æ
    I have lots of people who will help me if I need help.
    ã


    The difference between the examples of the scattered, powerless nature of the thoughts in the middle example and the greater power and cohesion in the first and third examples can be felt.



    RE: Jacque, the post about going to the Doctor looking good and smiling. It is a shame that the doctor(s) read your outward appearance over your words. You may be right that you would have been heard more clearly. It feels good though, that you are not hard on yourself about this as that would serve no purpose.
  13. Joyful Lady

    Joyful Lady Guest

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    Hi,

    I just saw this post. I will use plain text on this board in the future. My eyes like colors but I will conform to the group desires/needs.

    I am not sure what software you use for this Forum but most will allow the administrator to restrict color usage. If it is an issue for member readability that might be a better option - certainly less moderator time would be necessary.
  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I think we know the difference between being well and being happy. When most people say "I don't feel good", they're talking about the physical sensations they are experiencing. I don't expect a cure to bring me happiness, but I also think it's naive to suggest that happiness alone will bring well-being to very sick people.​
  15. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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  16. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Wow. It's like new age CBT - another way to blame the victim.

    FYI, a lot of people here do NOT have help when they need it - many don't even have the moral support of family members or others they see offline. People have waited years and decades for a "solution" and usually get abuse instead. There are no solutions for ME/CFS yet... we'd have to be insane to insist there is always a solution. Things working out well ... tell that to the ones that have died due to ME/CFS.

    And solving problems? It was fun when I was healthy, now it's often a torturous and futile exercise, because I lack the mental acuity to do so and because the problems I care about are mostly impossible for me to solve.
  17. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    I really struggle with the "positivity" discussion now. I have been a student of personal growth now for over 25 years... I do truly believe that what you think about you attract.... However it does NOT apply with my illness. I was 12 when I got sick...after a damn tick crawled in my ear and lit up my immune system. There is no positive thinking that can put out that fire.

    I have been told that BELIEF CREATES BIOLOGY... If that were the case I'd be sky diving and rocky mountain climbin instead of warmin this DAMN couch... The guy that JUDGED me with that BELIEF/BIOLOGY had a heart attack a few years later...and sadly I laughed when I heard the news. That was the karma he got for judging my invisible misery.

    I think my attitude has helped me to cope and appear to most as being "normal".... But they don't get to see the other 95% of the time where I want to die.

    I used to be a real follower of The Secret.... but I can't even listen to any of that anymore.... You are where you are as a result of your THOUGHTS.... hmmmm is that why one of the main speakers on the Secret had 5 people die in one of his sweat lodges and is now facing prison?? What about little babies born with cancer or horrible illness...were they negative thinking in the womb or in a past life????

    Don't get me wrong...Staying in a positive frame of mind is really all I am in control of... but to think someone can think their way out of this illness.... Well? More power to em... I sure haven't been able to.
    warriorseekspeace likes this.
  18. Jacque

    Jacque Senior Member

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    Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmg I am going to keep my mouth SHUT right now ... and back out of that conversation... Obviously that last post was made by someone who is not dealing with ME ... like the rest of us....
  19. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Thanks Joyful Lady, I really have a much clearer idea of where you are coming from now that I see you think that this work points towards the value of positive thinking.

    Have they ever tried a dual slit experiment with thought waves?

    Has there ever been any sort of blinded testing on these tests for subatomic communication and health? It could be easily done, and if the test proved accurate, that would be a truly revolutionary finding.

    Positive thinking can lead to one developing and then maintaining deeply warped views of reality. I know that a lot of people are trying to make money from selling books on this sort of stuff, and genuinely believing in it may help help your career, but I think that it's really important that we try to keep our beliefs grounded in the evidence. If there were good evidence that subatomic communication was indicative of individual's health, it would be amazing - there is no evidence for this. It's just a story used by quacks to make money out of the sick - you may not be charging people based upon this work, but others are, and it's not right. That you can use 'waves' as an analogy also does nothing to show that quantum mechanics points to positivity.
    Bob, warriorseekspeace, wdb and 2 others like this.
  20. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    lol. Maybe he had a migraine? Dangerous thought waves from his super-brain!

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