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PLEASE HELP - Do Probiotics Methylate Mercury and other heavy metals?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by dannybex, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks DB! I guess I could've looked at the directions, but...I was wiped after the shopping trip. I will maybe give it a try tonight...a couple hours after meals (I'm assuming).

    Speaking of meals...gotta make more mush for lunch. The cook quit, the maid quit, the butler quit...sigh.
     
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    SPA WAYNE! Me too! I wanna go!

    Seriously DAn, I would NOT take bentonite internally, unless you have an amazingly pure excellent source, as my best TCM practitioner told me he has tested and found HEAVY METALS in some of the batches. :eek::eek::eek:
     
  3. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi All,

    I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this one Kurt. I read an incredible story once on the dmpsbackfire.com website (Robin's story) that introduced me to the concept of "sequestered mercury" in the gums. This story would be well worth reading for those who may consider various kinds of "aggressive" heavy metal chelation, as it starkly describes some of the dangers involved.

    This story was part of the catalyst for me starting what I consider a gentle program of very gradually drawing sequestered mercury out of my gums (and body). In short, I do "oil pulling" 4-5 times a week for about 20 minutes, and follow it up with holding a bentonite clay solution in my mouth for another 20 minutes.

    This protocol seems to have a very strong "drawing action" and I usually feel various toxicities drawn out of my sinuses and lungs. I have no illusions it's going to pull all the sequestered mercury out of my body, but I feel it's lowering my heavy metal levels incrementally over time. At a minimum, I believe I'm keeping any further buildup from occurring.

    I do this on an empty stomach almost first thing in the morning, and find I always feel better afterward. It may seem like a pain for somebody who reads this, but I've gotten quite used to it, and don't give it a second thought as I go about some of my normal morning rituals.

    I feel like I'm taking the route of the tortoise at this time regarding gentle detoxification; doing clay foot baths, doing fairly gentle FIR saunas, doing a moderate amount of methylation supplements, plus the above protocol (and more). Going the route of the hare just sounds to problematic for my own compromised detoxification capabilities.

    Best, Wayne
     
  4. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Dan,
    I'm sorry you've been feeling so terrible. Terrible sounds like a bit of an under statement actually. How frustrating - try and make things better and you get hit for a massive six :(
    I had a semi-crash myself after stirring things up with a biofilm protocol. Fragile creatures are we. :In bed:

    I seem to do OK with Bentonite, and really well with apple pectin - in fact I've always thought just eating apples helps with detox in a way. I don't do so well with Chlorella of any type. We're all different I guess.

    My littlest short person has anxiety and twitchiness tendancies - nothing too bad thankfully. But magnesium has helped him a lot. Effective probiotics can cause very severe die-off I wonder if the enzymes responsible for trying to deal with that might be robbing you of your magnesium?
    Glad to hear that taurine helped anyway.

    Sounds like your body needs to take this way slower and gentler. Gee wish I had a formula I could give you for THAT!

    Stay strong Dan.
     
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Anne for your kind and supportive words -- I really appreciate them -- and your input too.

    I'm not sure what to make of bentonite internally. I have read about what Dreambirdie said above...that bentonite can have heavy metals in it...some Brit study found unacceptable levels in certain brands...but does that mean we'll absorb them? I have no idea of course, just asking. I think -- emphasize THINK -- that the reason some may contain heavy metals is because that's what they do -- they adsorb metals, from the environment, from the body, from contact with the metals. I'm not sure if that means they then deposit those metals in our bodies...but shoot, they certainly could!

    I think you're correct about the magnesium problem. It's been shown in studies to stimulate candida growth (at least in a dish), so that could possibly be a problem, plus the possible heavy metal interference. I don't seem to tolerate mag supps very well, so perhaps my body is telling me something, but I have used some magnesium oil off and on -- and shoot -- used some last night, so maybe that also helped. (Brain fog sucks.)

    Apples are supposed to be good for gallbladder and liver function too (like taurine) -- so perhaps they work by stimulating those, and then the pectin binds to the bad stuff?

    Questions, questions...

    Anyway, thanks again!
     
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Mercury and Shedding skin...

    I know. This is weird, replying to my own post.

    But I just found a very surprising symptom of mercury toxicity on wikipedia (a cautious, conservative site overall):

    "Common symptoms of mercury poisoning include peripheral neuropathy (presenting as paresthesia or itching, burning or pain), skin discoloration (pink cheeks, fingertips and toes), swelling, and desquamation (shedding of skin)."

    Have all the other symptoms (except perhaps 'swelling') but had never heard that last one before. Been shedding for about 9 months now...
     
  7. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    Hi Danny,

    Sounds rough. I hope you can pull through in one piece.

    My problem is Lead which sounds different from your problem of mercury.

    Clays appear to come in many varities. you may want to read "how to choose an edible clay" on the link http://www.eytonsearth.org/drinking-clay-internal-use.php

    I have tried some modified ctirus pectin lately and that seems good and mild for detoxing lead. I'm not the type to have adverse reactions though like you.

    The role of modified citrus pectin as an effective chelator of lead in children hospitalized with toxic lead levels
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18616067

    For liver I don't know what you are having probelms with, but you may want to check out dandelion for bile. It supposed to work, but I can;t say I really feel anything.

    I bought some stuff from costco that is called 10 day acai berry easy-cleanse that seems to help my liver and bile flow when I had an issue recently. It's about $18 bucks, but there is a coupon for $3 in the Coscto coupon flyer at the moment.

    regarding the chlorella Ann mentioned, I don't do well on chlorellla either. it seems to chelates my zinc very well, which in turn gvies me stomach cramps and really dry hair when I get low on zinc(and maybe other minerals).
     
  8. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Purely anecdotal:

    When I started taking ThreeLac at the beginning of this summer, the trigger point pain and swelling that I had went away.

    Prior to taking the ThreeLac, any time I would take anything that prompted detox, the trigger points would get extremely painful. Substances that prompted this pain to occur included ALA (supposed to loosen up mercury), Valcyte (possibly loosens mercury, also lots of "gunk" to get rid of) and the methylation supplements.

    Addressing the trigger points with neural therapy helped somewhat but was rather laborious.

    The fact that the ThreeLac had such a dramatic effect seems really odd. However, I tried starting and stopping a few times, and there definitely was an association. Another person who has more or less recovered from ME/CFS reports the same thing.

    After I started taking the ThreeLac, I got a lot of dizziness and hangover type feelings. Much of it was quite unpleasant. I felt like s*** all the time, for a few months. This was at the same time I started taking large amounts of zinc and (occasionally at first) very high dose methyl B12 shots, so the toxins were really flowing out.

    (Zinc, per the KPU protocol, loosens up mercury.)

    This is what I think happened to me.

    When the body becomes very toxic, the fascia and Ground Regulation System gets "gummed up." Dr. William Rea discusses this in his books (highly recommended, btw). The consistency of the extracellular matrix (which should be a liquid-gel) becomes more like styrofoam. As a result, stuff cannot flow through it. This includes especially lymph (which is supposed to be expelling toxins, pathogen remains and other debris), but also electrical signals (from the nerves) and blood (from the circulatory system).

    Anything that loosens up the fascia will get the lymph moving again. If there is a big backup, an extreme toxic feeling will occur. (I am just having this myself, as a result of a reflexology treatment I had last night.)

    The missing puzzle piece is why the fascia gets loosened up from a probiotic. The experience of the other mostly-recovered ME/CFS patients and me is that only Three Lac has done it for us. (Maybe when people start to examine the role of mold and other toxins in this illness, they will think about this one as well.)

    I can't say what happened to you. However, if it's the same phenomenon that I experienced, then I would suggest that you loosened up a lot of mercury/whatever as a result of the methylation supplements, and that it along with a bunch of backed up toxins and other debris now are flowing out of your system and making you feel sick.

    When I was going through this stage over the summer, I started doing coffee enemas every day (removes toxins) and having cravings for apples (contain malic acid, which -- according to some of the people pursuing KPU issues -- binds mercury). I took some malic acid also.

    Once you have FolaPro in your system, it will keep working for a LONG time. The half-life/recycling ability of that substance is extremely large. This seems to be consistent across patients, not just me. I would say that it continues to work at full-speed for at least a couple of weeks, but can continue (in some people) to have a noticeable effect for months.

    The only way (to my knowledge) to turn off the detox is to stop all B12. Even a small amount in a multivitamin can keep the process going, if there's enough of a backlog.

    Based on my own experience, I'd be more inclined to stop the methylation rather than to quit the probiotic. If I'm right about this, stopping the probiotic will just cause the metals to get clogged up in the lymph, which doesn't seem to me that it could possibly be a good thing. Clearing up the backlog of the toxins before releasing more seems to be a good idea..

    Again, this is all speculative/anecdotal on my part. I would like to hear how things resolve for you.

    Best, Lisa
     
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Dan.

    Yes. He alternated between taking the probiotics and taking the methylation supplements. He found that both helped him, but he could not tolerate taking them together.

    Rich
     
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks for your replies friends...I've had a rough day again...gotta try and duplicate what I did two nights ago, and see if things improve again, and will get back here hopefully tomorrow. :)
     
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi again,

    I'm not sure what do to, but took more taurine last night, and think I was a little better for awhile both last night and this morning, but starting to tense up again, so will have to get off soon, take some more, and get through the day. My sister is coming down later this afternoon.

    Am also taking clonazepam, but that really doesn't seem to make too much of a difference. The extreme tense, anxious feeling didn't start to release until about 20 minutes after I took some taurine yesterday. I have found articles online that show that taurine helps with cramps, anxiety, etc., and found this study that showed (in rats) that taurine helped with mercury intoxication:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18405108

    Lisa -- thanks for your input. I have stopped the methylation supplements. It's just weird that Kurt is able to handle them fine (he's also taking other components), even with fillings in his mouth, and yet I and others have had problems.

    I should note that I was taking a variety of other probiotics besides Threelac, so perhaps just trying the threelac would be okay, but I'm frankly quite worried as well, as I just cannot go through a worsening situation again. I think it was the last one I took however...probably on Sunday afternoon(?)...and I believe it was Monday, the 6th, when I was feeling better...so I don't know if it was part of the improvement or not.

    When you took ALA, were you taking per the Cutler protocol -- every 3 hours, for 3 days, 2 nights, then a week long break? I did well with that a year and a half ago...have notes in my diary of feeling calmer, etc.,...but that was long before methylation. I got some more yesterday, but again, with my anxiety so high, I'm worried about taking that as well!

    I read earlier today that Cutler says ALA won't help with methylmercury, but do I know that's what I'm dealing with? I don't, although it has to be at least mercury, as again, I have all the classic symptoms, and blood tests in August showed elevated levels.

    Rich hypothesized that since mercury does not remain in the blood for more than a few weeks, this suggested that I had perhaps a large body burden from almalgam removal (done in the early days -- 1988, 10 years before I got sick -- with maybe not the best protection).

    I never understood the KPU protocol -- never seemed to have a problem, at least like that reported by others -- with zinc. Although perhaps that's changed now too? I don't know. I have taken zinc recently, but can't tell you the day. I was taking copper for awhile -- I always test low -- but stopped that probably 10 days ago.

    I'm curious where you heard or read about the half life of Folapro?

    Mark -- thanks for your input too. My sister is bringing down some modified citrus pectin for me to try. Will see how that goes. Gut is definitely acting up, but not sure if that's because of toxicity, or a result of the high anxiety. So perhaps the pectin will give me an answer there.

    I'd be curious what others think about that: Do gut issues suggest heavy metal toxins in the gut? I suppose once in the gut however, they could be anywhere too...

    Finally...wondering if anyone has tried frequent-dose chelation using oral DMSA? Apparently that will help lower methylmercury levels, even in the brain, although some say otherwise (as usual). Of course I don't even know if the mercury is in my brain, but have a feeling it is. :(

    THANKS TO ALL,

    Dan
     
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Methylation Block: Body's way of protecting from toxins?

    Just had a thought:

    I'm wondering if perhaps the partial methylation cycle block that Rich and other docs have found in a majority of CFS patients might be the body's attempt to protect itself from heavy metals and other environmental toxins?

    ???

    Would love to hear your thoughts.
     
  13. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I believe that if someone is not living in a good place in terms of biotoxin exposures, the methylation protocol will be extremely difficult for them to do. I got very sick on it when I was still living in my moldy house.

    I also believe that if people are really sick from toxicity reactions as a result of being in a bad place in terms of biotoxin exposures, the body fights to keep from releasing any additional toxins (biotoxins or other toxins). It doesn't sound wholly wrong to think that the methylation block might be related to this.

    Whether people have mercury fillings seems to be much less important than the biotoxins that they're getting from the environment. And that makes sense too. There is some reason to believe that the mercury fillings are not leaching out HUGE amounts of mercury every second -- the dental industry is not that wholly irresponsible that they would put something in our mouths that's undeniably seriously bad. However, since nobody's testing for what's in a bad building -- much less what's in the outside air -- the potential is there for it to be much more dangerous.

    As I said, that post of mine above was totally speculative. When we first began the methylation protocol in 2007, a bunch of us took FolaPro and then reported our results in terms of how long it was affecting us.

    What I wonder is whether any of this is related very much to anything that you took. Maybe it's just due to its being "Suicide Season"?

    Just a thought.

    Perhaps inadvertently, I didn't hit the mercury for about 2 1/2 years after moving out of my moldy house. I worked on biotoxins and viruses, which gave me plenty to do. Then this past summer, it must have seemed time because I started throwing everything I could at it reflexively: high-dose methyl B12 injections, Deplin (high-dose FolaPro), ALA (oral and IV), high-dose zinc. It was fairly intense and pretty icky, and it took about two months before it slowed down.

    Now I'm back to detoxing biotoxins again. Unlike with the mercury (which just made me feel like s*** but allowed me to keep working at full speed), the biotoxins make me catatonic and overall seem really dangerous when they leave my system. I can't speak to everyone with this disease, but those are such an issue for me that the mercury seems trivial in comparison (even though I had a whole lot of amalgams in my mouth for 25 years of my life).

    I'd never have known that the biotoxins were a problem at all if I'd not removed myself from the bad environment though. Then my body would have just clung tightly to them forever.

    I really hope you feel better soon, Danny. Sounds really terrible..... :(

    Best, Lisa
     
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Lisa. I'm confused (again!)...

    If the body fights to keep from releasing any additional toxins, does that mean if I'm dumping metals, that I'm probably living in an 'okay' house/environment?

    I agree that of course there can always be other possibilities. In my case, I had my fillings out 22 years ago. I think it's Rich's hypothesis that the methylation issue caused these metals and other things I'd been exposed to to be held in the liver, (maybe leaking out and about in small amounts over the years) but when the supps were taken, along with the variety of probiotics, things got released too fast, and got too stirred up. ???


    I understand. It's just that I've never, ever had this kind of a severe problem before. The only thing I've done differently is start the methylation protocol. I want to stress however that I don't blame Rich or anyone for the problems I've experienced. If methylation is blocked, then one can't make bioactive folates and the b12's we need to LIVE, so that needs to be corrected. In hindsight, I guess that perhaps I should've started with smaller doses and gradually ramped up.

    Thanks Lisa. I hope so too. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
     
  15. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    porphyrias and heavy metals.

    Hi Danny,

    That very interesting about Rich's hypothesis of metals being held in the liver. I strongly suspect that some of my issues are related to liver health, if not all of my issues related to liver health.

    Dan, You may want to read a little on porphyria's. It is a disease of the heme(liver related), which carries oxygen to the body. Acute porphyrias can cause anxiety big time, and heme gets really messed up from heavy metals and infections. Porphyrias can mess with the skin and nervous system. I get burned easily in sunlight and figured out it was porphyria doing it. Since managing my metals I have reduced my porphyria.

    "Porphyrias are a group of inherited or acquired disorders of certain enzymes in the heme bio-synthetic pathway (also called porphyrin pathway). They are broadly classified as acute (hepatic) porphyrias and cutaneous (erythropoietic) porphyrias, based on the site of the overproduction and accumulation of the porphyrins (or their chemical precursors). They manifest with either neurological complications or skin problems (or occasionally both)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria

    hang in there buddy!
     
  16. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Dannybex,

    I'm really really sorry to hear you've been feeling such crap. Hopefully some of the fine info you've gotten here will help. I think Wayne's foot baths are a *really* good idea. I would avoid taking clay internally or doing enemas too frequently, those can both cause further problems in my opinion when overdone.

    I am concerned that your skin has been sheeting off for such a long time. Have you seen your practitioner for this? Combined with the severe anxiety, I fear that you are in a crisis phase that might require more targeted and intense action.

    As someone with lead levels so high they produced an exclamation of "Holy Crap!" from the clinic director, I thought I'd chime in with the things that help me when I'm particularly overloaded (even though our toxins are different.) There is a great (but pricey) product from EcoNugenics (Pectasol Chelation Complex) that is modified fruit pectin with alginate-- alginate appears to significantly reduce the amount of pectin needed for effective binding. (It is possible to get a significant discount when ordering a case through a person with any kind of practitioner license. I split a case with a practitioner friend.) This will chelate as well, but bind what it chelates effectively in my experience. The website has some compelling clinical trials regarding its effectiveness.

    The other thing that helps me more than NAC, is actual glutathione, either in liposomal form, or transdermal cream from Lee Silsby. Both of these are kind of pricey too, unfortunately, but I slather the TD cream like crazy when I'm detoxing and it helps a lot. You need a doctor/naturopath to prescribe. These are the only forms that allegedly remain stable.

    As for your question of oral DMSA, I absolutely could not tolerate it. Made me really really sick and nauseous; though a friend who is also chelating high lead levels is fine with it. I had great success bringing lead levels waaay down taking the pectasol daily and alternating IV EDTA and transdermal DMSA again from Lee Silsby. The TD DMSA makes you smell a bit sulfury, but you only use it weekends, then 11 days off.

    There also exist suppository forms of both EDTA and DMSA. Easier to tolerate, I think, than orally if you have gut issues, but still, you will detox and need to keep taking your binders.

    Anyhow, best of luck getting through this, and maybe turn a little of this sifting-of-info process over to a reliable practitioner? I know very well the kind of overwhelm--on so many levels--that makes it hard to discover the right plan of action when you already feel so sick and disoriented.

    There is so much conflicting info on HM removal; when I finally handed it over (well partially) to my local clinic that does IV chelation, within four months I had gone from 175X the acceptable lead level to 25X. I still have a ways to go, but those are results to feel good about!!

    Sending you hugs and more hugs,
    ~leela :hug::hug:
     
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  17. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles Dan......

    When I saw Rea years ago and did the saunas he had people take cold pressed oils - Tblespoon or two, fiber (as has been mentioned), I think Vit c and E and niacin (which you wouldn't want to take).He told me the cold pressed oils really help mop up the junk.

    I did absolutely terrible on Chlorella - couldn't take a even half a tablet without getting nauseous. I have a similar problem with B12.

    I do fine with a coffee enema now and then. When I got food poisoning down in Texas Rea had me do an enema - get that stuff out of your colon....its the most toxin ridden part of the body from what I've heard and when you're detoxing toxins get dumped into the digestive system..maybe a regular enema would be easier on your system...I don't know.

    I think we always have to be careful about Detox....hope you're feeling better. !
     
  18. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hey Dan--

    I think your situation has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH MOLD, and I would not even go there right now with that speculation, because it will just add more confusion (and definitely more stress!) to your life.

    I agree with your thoughts above, though I don't think anyone here has the perception that you are blaming Rich for the problems you've experienced. It all boils down to "shit happens," and with CFS we are all too familiar with that slogan, aren't we? :rolleyes:

    I went through a very similar experience with Fredddd's protocol as you have with Rich's simplified protocol. And I also went through a similar experience when I took Lauricidin last fall and zeolite back in 2005. IN my case, whenever I open the flood gates to release the heavy metal toxins from wherever they are lurking in my system, (and I have read that they can settle ANYWHERE IN THE BODY), they will come gushing out full force like gang busters. It's been very hard for me to control the rate and speed of that kind of detox process, and even harder to put the brakes on it once it gets to be too much.

    I think in time the detox reaction will slow down and become more bearable. I know that's not much consolation when you're in the thick of it, but at least you have a few things to try out... thanks to all the expert advice you've received on this thread... :cool::cool::thumbsup:

    I definitely would steer clear of the methylation supp's for a while, until you feel you strong enough to handle even a minimal detox. I know some people who only took a quarter of each supp. every third day, and built up very gradually over time. That might be much more manageable for you.

    I wish you a speedy return to homeostasis. :hug:
     
  19. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hey Leela--

    I am on the same page with you about the fruit pectin, and would love to try out that product you mention that includes the alginate. It sounds very similar to the JArrow Heavy Metal Detox, which I mentioned earlier.

    I am also really curious about transdermal glutathione. I heard the oral forms were completely ineffective, so I've used the N-A-C instead, and found that very helpful. But now I am eager to try out the transdermal form. Very good idea.

    As for DMSA and EDTA, they both just freak the hell out of me. My best TCM practitioner in L.A., who works with 100 patients/week on some of these same issues (heavy metals, CFS, MCS), urges all his hyper-sensitive patients to avoid these kind of strong chelators. He has seen people end up in the hospital with kidney and liver damage from them, and some who even became temporarily paralyzed. I would NOT risk that kind of thing, and would encourage DAn to avoid them at all costs. Just my two cents, but it is DEFINITELY better to be safe than sorry.
     
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  20. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Oh yeah, Cort's post reminds me that I wanted to add my own 2 about chlorella--
    I personally can't tolerate it, and my naturopath eschews it due to its properties as a "counter-irritant."
    Counter-irritants are apparently more useful when you are either super-healthy and doing detox as part of your health regime, or at the point of terminal illness--according to my doc's theory, anyway. Those of us with chronic irritation don't need to be adding more irritants... :eek:
     

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