The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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phosphatidyl-choline or serine raise acetylcholine?

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by SwanRonson, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    I've read conflicting things online. One article said PS raises acetylcholine levels and that paradoxically, PC has no effect on acetylcholine, even though it has "choline" in the name. My nutritionist said the opposite however. Does anyone know which one does raise acytelcholine, or maybe they both do?

    I'm very sensitive to things like B5 which raise acytelcholine levels. Even 100mg of B5 makes me totally brain-frenzied for hours. I'd like to avoid anything that raises it.

    Many PS supplements also seem to include PC as well, so maybe that's where some of the confusion comes from. Maybe pure PS wouldnt.
     
  2. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @SwanRonson - this doesn't really address your question, but it might be helpful to you. Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) was very effective in normalizing my cortisol levels when they were high at night. Here's a blurb I downloaded about phosphorylated serine (Seriphos) versus phosphatidyl serine (it says nothing about phosphatidyl choline) (these names are too similar!)

    A good place to buy Seriphos is professionalsupplementcenter.com - they have a good price and free fast shipping.

    Seriphos - phosphorylated serine
    Proprietary Blend: Phosphoserine and Ethanolamine 1,000 mg

    Other ingredients: Gelatin.

    Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) is less expensive and more efficient in converting the stress hormone cortisol than regular phosphatidyl serine. Phosphorylated Serine is a pure product and not derived from animal tissue. The serine is from vegetable sources and the phosphate is from a pure phosphate donor compound.

    Regular phosphatidyl serine acts as a precursor molecule and is not the active form of the nutrient. In the tissue, regular phosphatidyl serine is linked to glyceroland, the appropriate fatty acids specific to each tissue, and is not linked to the fatty acids provided in phosphorylated serine (Seriphos). In short, fatty acids can oxidize in regular phosphatidyl serine.

    Seriphos, Phosphorylated Serine, is less expensive and does not oxidize. Absorption does not depend upon enzyme availability in the gastro-intestinal tract of the user as does phosphatidyl serine.

    Seriphos, like phosphatidyl serine, stimulates neuronal plasticity, acting as a compensatory adaptive mechanism to cell deterioration, and is capable of preventing or delaying the age-dependent decline of neurotransmitter function.

    Chronic stress, physical and mental, can desensitize the hypothalmic-Pituitary-Axis and elevate cortisol. Seriphos can help optimize the stress response, and repair the damage wrought by catabolic stress hormones. Phosphatidyl serine, when consumed in food provides only 20% of active phosphorylated serine. Each 100 mg of phosphatidyl serine only yields 20mg of activated serine following consumption. The bulk of the weight is derived from two fatty acids, acting as a precursor molecule and is not the active form of the nutrient. Seriphos is more stable, economic, and a more active molecule than phosphatidyl serine

    Seriphos can improve memory and sleep. Clinical studies show an improvement on both computerized and standard neuropsychological performance tests.

    NOTE: Seriphos works with the pineal gland. Take two in the morning and two at lunch time before meals for better sleep at nighttime. This mimics the cortisol "curve". Re dosage: I had to experiment to get the right dose. Initially I ended up needing 8 capsules of Seriphos a day - a pretty high dose, but it was very effective and eventually I was able to cut it down. It's very important to take it in the morning - taken at night it can cause insomnia, so I took 4 capsules first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and 4 capsules late morning.
     
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  3. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    PC definitely raises choline (and subsequently acetylcholine) levels. PS can convert to PC and raise choline as well:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    I wonder if the phosphorylated serine would bypass these pathways. I can't find the chemical structure of it to tell.

    I found this paper:

    http://www.moodcure.com/pdfs/Townsend-Letter-NNTI article.docx.pdf

    detailing their use of phosphorylated serine for sleep problems. It's interesting that they recommend using it right before bed to lower high night-time cortisol, but you had success taking it early in the day. I guess we're all different so I'll need to experiment. They also mention "Lactium".
     
  5. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @SwanRonson - When I first took Seriphos, I was told by a practitioner to take it before bed and if I had trouble sleeping, take more during the night. And it was one of the worst nights sleep I've ever had. It was actually a little bizarre, I can't remember how exactly but it was not good.

    I can't remember how I figured it out (instead of just deciding to stop the Seriphos), but I decided to try taking it in the morning and it was completely different - no bad reaction at all and I felt calmer, better able to deal with things, though not sedated, and started sleeping better at night almost immediately. The company itself which makes it says to take it in the morning (see blurb above). And someone else on this board recently took it, at night, and had bad insomnia.

    Just keep this in mind when you experiment -- but maybe it will be different for you.
     
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  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @adreno, does the PS in that diagram stand for Phosphatydil Serine or Phosphorylated Serine?
     
  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    That's what I've done for years. It works well for me. One exception is when I've had too much exercise that day. It can take up to two days to get my cortisol to come down (I'm judging by symptoms, not repeated cortisol labs.)
     
  8. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    It stands for phosphatidylserine. But I don't think it matters which form you take, as they can interconvert:

    http://www.drdebe.com/articles/phosphorylated-serine
     
    picante likes this.
  9. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    I have high morning cortisol (high 12's around 7am) and then a big crash down to the 2.0 range by lunch time. It stays low all day and then begins to rise around 9pm. I consistently wake up around 3:30-4:00am, so that's what I'm trying to solve. I was a little worried about taking it in the morning since I know it lowers cortisol very effectively. I didn't want to push things too far down.

    Thanks for your help. Here's my graph:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    @Mary - did your cortisol pattern look anything like mine above? Just wondering as I'm getting ready to take the Seriphos for the first time.
     
  11. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @SwanRonson - You know, I didn't get a graph and this was 12 years ago and I don't know where my results are now. The main thing I remember is that my cortisol was high in the middle of the night and I had severe middle of the night insomnia. I did have 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. wake-ups, and would be awake for hours. My cortisol may have been high in the morning too - I had a regular blood test a year or 2 ago and my morning cortisol was on the high side.

    I found Seriphos to be very benign, compared to most other supplements or drugs. I'm pretty sensitive to a lot of things and had no bad reaction to the Seriphos, except when I took it at night. Maybe just start with two in the morning. I want to say I'm sure it won't hurt you, although the other day someone had a bad reaction to niacin which I had recommended. Anyways, just start slow, see how you do. After several months, I was able to cut my initial dose of 8 caps a day - I knew this because I found myself getting extra tired and realized my cortisol was going too low but this didn't happy overnight.
     
  12. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    Keep in mind that the following is written by someone with no medical/health background.
    I wonder if you are waking up around 3:30 - 4:00 am because your cortisol is already high. This makes me think it might be helpful to take the PS then.
     
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Its my understanding that PS works through improving our sensitivity to cortisol, not directly blocking it as such. with the increased sensitivity the body is suppose to sense the increase in cortisol and lower its own production?

    I think it can have some immediate effects but probably more effects if used long term as PS is a fat used to help make neurons, nerves etc and this takes time for this to occur.

    500-800 mg is the doses i have seen recommended. I have used 500mg and feel it helps sleep some but i dont have any testing proving it lowers my cortisol.

    It is important to have good dhea levels as it supposedly helps to counteract any negative aspects of cortisol and can help with pregnenolone steal which occurs during prolonged stress and robs the hormones from other pathways such as sex hormones. Sex hormones are needed for their anabolic properties of growth and repair.
     
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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  15. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    My testosterone reported low as well this past week and I'm definitely in a catabolic state since I've lost muscle mass and can't seem to gain any weight. My LH came back normal, but T and free-T were both low. Not scary low, but well out of range. That makes me think I'm suffering cortisol or pregnenolone steal that's blunting my T.

    I did have a period of prolonged, intense stress that wrecked my sleep back in September when all of my problems started. But, the standard advice for "adrenal fatigue" just hasn't helped much. Vitamin C is fine (1000 mg /day), but the recommended 1000mg of pantothenic acid makes me feel like my brain is on fire. The acetylcholine flood is almost unbearable and lasts for hours, so I stopped taking it. Even 100mg makes me feel terrible.

    I started the Seriphos this morning with a 500mg dose (half a capsule). I'll take another half capsule at lunch and keep working my way up over a week or so to see how things go.

    I agree. I think it is already high. I have no night-time saliva test to prove it, but if I do manage to fall asleep, I will wake back up anywhere between 1am - 4am. From the graph, it starts to rise around 8pm and hits almost 13 by 7am, so there must be a waking threshold getting passed somewhere in the night.

    I was thinking, like you, that it would make sense to take it at bed time. And, I've heard other people/sites recommend that. But, more people seem to recommend what @Mary and @heapsreal do, so I decided to start that way with morning and lunch doses.
     
  16. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    @heapsreal is right...PS is useful for either high or low cortisol states.
     
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  17. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    @SwanRonson My NP wanted me on 500 mgs Panthothenic acid for my adrenals. I was so wired it was horrible.

    I tried again, starting at a much lower dose and have now worked my way up to 500 no problems.

    A previous test showed my cortisol rises slightly between 7 and 8 a.m. then is flat the other 23 hours of the day. But I wake around 4 every morning and can't get back to sleep so maybe this might help me.
     
  18. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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  19. SwanRonson

    SwanRonson Senior Member

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    What did you start at and how much/how often did you increase if you don't mind me asking.

    I'm not sure that I fit into the category of "adrenal fatigue". My cortisol is sky high in the morning, crashes mid-morning, then begins to rise again right before bed time. It's more like "adrenal roller coaster."
     
  20. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Your testes should be producing about 90% of your total testosterone. Your adrenal glands produce DHEA which converts partialy to testosterone but only accounts for about 10% of total T. If your LH is normal and your total T is really low, that suggests more of a type 1 hypogonadism scenario. At least that's what an endo would say, but it's more complicated that than. Factor in things like dietary fat and cholesterol intake, sleep, zinc, DHEA, etc. Those all have an impact on testosterone levels. You can have lower total test and normal free test as well though.

    Your situation sounds similar to mine. I think cortisol rises higher than normal and extra early for me which ruins my quality of sleep. I'm still experimenting with Seriphos and have been taking large amounts, sometimes 12-14 caps a day. I may try 10 caps before bed. The trick is to take it during the time your cortisol peaks, or when you feel that it's higher. I really believe some of genes for glucortiroid resistance are preventing people with "AF" from recalibrating properly.
     

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