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Phase I/Phase II lever detox problems/genova detoxification-how to improve?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by herbqueen, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. herbqueen

    herbqueen

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    I was wondering if any of you have recommendations for how to improve my chemical detoxification. I have been chemically sensitive fo 20 years- fibro diagnosis-now major MS type Neuro issues/neuro lyme-MRI is clean. So far both a lyme herbal protocol an dnow a few herbs have accelerated my neuro disease with huge neuro explosions/new symptom I can't recover from. Seems my only option is abx protocol but terrified of where I am and my ability to detox. Right now even sleep meds like trazadone (not sleeping at all in this neuro crash-first sleep meds I've taken)ne leave a chemical taste in my mouth all day long (been like this for a long time).

    How do you improve Phase I /Phase II?

    My results are:

    Phase I -VERY FAST (as i understand you don't want phase I to be so fast) (caffeine clearance test)
    Phase II-Cystein slow, sulphate slow, sulfation normal (butI think the first 2 feed the final so slow?)
    Phase II Glutathione- just in normal range
    Phase II- Glucuronidation slow
    Phase II -Glycine conjugation FAST

    Is there a way to tell what meds I can /cannot tolerate? i.e. flagyl? diflucan? made me crash or abx drugs for lyme?

    How do I improve this? I feel very toxic right now on these first meds I'm on-so sick now -I have to do something to stop the neuro degenerative symptoms ie optic neuritis, muscle strenght, coordination, holding my head up, jerking/twitching, speaking etc.==but terrified how sick I have become and if I can tolerate abx treament-but not sure what other options I have.

    -have stayed away from all chemicals last12 years, mostly organic foods/free range meats last 12 years-until this neuro crash walked every day


    My GP recommended a supplement called DIM or indole 3 carbinol?

    Naturopath recommend livaplex from standard process (milk thistle, schizandra , rosemary)-i've taken milk thistle off/on for years...........

    Is this genetic? Can it be changed?

    Thank you for your input.
  2. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    I too cant do drugs. Recently tried Tagamet and think I nearly died. Took 2 wks to do its thing with dreadful toxic feeling. Thankfully I rang my Doc now a naturopath and he said to take 1 teasp of Turmeric and V8 juice. twice a day. I did this and the next morning I felt improved......taken me 2 wks to get off the couch. What he did say was supplements and Tagemt go thru the CYP 450 ....the first phase of detox I believe. I am doing the Methylation prog and I am feeling lot better BUT will this problem solve itself......will I be able to do drugs that is the question. I suspect that once the methylation really works it will carry out of the body the toxins...right now there is a back up in the pipe.
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, herbqueen.

    The body's detoxication system is very dependent on the sulfur metabolism working properly. This includes such sulfur-containing substances as cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate, some of which you mentioned.
    Glutathione is particularly important, because it is involved in both Phase I and Phase II detox.

    I don't know if you have heard of the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis for ME/CFS. I believe that it explains the biochemical basis of this disorder for most cases. If you want to read about it, you can go to www.cfsresearch.org. Click on CFS/M.E. and then on my name, and you can read the papers and articles posted there about this. There is also a treatment based on this hypothesis that is described there, which has helped many people who have ME/CFS. It's important to work with a physician while on this treatment. As the detox system begins to recover, toxins will be mobilized, and this can produce some unpleasant symptoms, even as other symptoms are improving.

    I hope this helps.

    Rich
  4. herbqueen

    herbqueen

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    DIM or Indole 3 Carbinol for phase II liver detox?

    Thanks Rich- I'm so ill right now from crash from my first drugs (flagyl/diflucan)_ and a few herbs- had neuro explosion-so difficult for me to try anything right now that might make matters worse-waiting for LLMD appointment (but not sure how my body can take anything right now and totally stopped sleeping during this crash -having MS symptoms plus whole lot more-doctors say no MS- i'm in the lyme camp i guess. Started as fibro 12 years ago, then optic neuritis, now this).

    My GP doctor says to take DIM or Indole 3 carbinol for phase II liver detox issues-any thoughts on this?
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Rich--

    Can you tell me EXACTLY what this test is called? And how much it costs?

    I have been working constantly on MCS issues for over 20 years now, and would like to know what's up with my liver detox pathways. :confused::confused::confused: I have dabbled with the folapro and B12's, but can't get into doing the simplified protocol, until I get over my recent long setback (caused by stupid doctor's IODINE recommendation).

    herbqueen--I am so sorry to hear that you are struggling with overwhelming toxic symptoms. :( I wish I had something really helpful to suggest. I have been there myself, and it took a brilliant genius TCM guy to drag me back to land. I hope you can find someone brilliant to help you through this.
  6. herbqueen

    herbqueen

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    thanks dreambirdie-

    Unfortunately my fibro/chemical sensitivies has progressed to a progressive neurological disease-with a 100 very scary MS type symptoms including optic neuritis-muscle weakness numbness, coordination, nerve pain in brain, jerking , twitching ,you name I have it- on the floor couch now 24X7. and total insomnia on top o fit. I crashed inot this state from not well but functioning and not in agony to this -from just 1 week of flagyl/3 diflucan (first pharmecuticals in over 12 years) and a few herbs. I've become hypersenstive to everytihng. My only resource is antibiotic treatment for lyme- which I'm terrified of since just a few weeks of drugs pushed me into hell with a zillion new symptoms/in agony I didn't have before. Searching for answers- scared of how far this has progressed since optic neuritis hit 4 years ago (fibro 12).

    I'm looking everywhere for ansers
  7. lostinthedesert

    lostinthedesert Killer, Clown, Priestess

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    Don't know if you could tolerate any sort of sequestrant. They will at least reduce reabsorbtion of anything that does make it into the bile. For me the detox was fierce for two weeks and then tapered off over two more weeks. My neuros have been much reduced ever since as long as i take a maintenance dose. I cant take glutathione without breathing problems so this is what works for me. Ymmv of course. Peace, S
  8. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    Wow, that sounds rough. I also had a bad neurological reaction to Flagyl about 10 years ago, that lasted for quite awhile, the nerves take time to heal. And anti-fungals gave me chronic kidney pains. And some of the other things you mention. I also have an almost identical caffeine clearance test. One doctor said that was Lyme, but the lyme drugs made me much, much worse, I was on ABX for over a year, but crashed and have never completely recovered from that. And anti-lyme herbs have not helped.

    Lowering the detox load any way I can has been all that has really helped. And managing glucose levels (hypoglycemic type diet). To lower the detox load I removed any food that feeds bugs, basically have had to be on the 'Body Ecology Diet' since that time. Also I use natural anti-microbials now instead of drugs when I get sick. Such as olive leaf extract, oregano oil, grapefruit seed extract, some others. Also for some reason Klamath blue-green algae seems to help me sleep, don't know why exactly although that might help detox.

    Sorry to hear someone else in this situation, I'm also looking for answers still. I did try the simplified methylation supplements a few years ago, but had strong neurological reactions. But there have been some changes in those supplements recommended so I'm considering that again, this time more carefully, with the testing, etc.

    Good luck!
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    ANOTHER question...sorry.

    I read somewhere that phase 1/ phase 2 must be balanced...so that if one's phase 1 detox is working okay, or too well, but the phase 2 isn't, then that may help explain why some people develop MCS, or can't even tolerate certain foods like eggs for example.

    Is this true...and does the methylation cycle that you talk about correcting occur more in phase 1 or phase 2...or both?

    Thank you Rich!

    p.s. Same question as DB: Is there another test in addition to the methylation panel that you'd recommend to see how phase1/phase2 are working (or not working)?

    p.s.p.s. INTERESTING Herbqueen re Indole 3 carbinol. What is "DIM"???
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    bumping...

    ...for herbsqueen, susan, DB, and all...

    Herbsqueen...how are you doing? Have you found any answers...have you tried the indole 3 carbinol?

    Also, what was the name of the test -- was it one of those Genova tests?

    thanks.
  11. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    If the test has the same name as when they were Great Smokies Diagnostic Labs, it was called the Detoxification Profile test. I don't know if they've renamed it since becoming Genova.

    When I had the test, I had the opposite problem of herbqueen. I had too much GSH conjugation relative to CP450. The test report specifically said that increasing GSH could "further imbalance the system," one of the reasons I've been very wary of Cheney's earlier GSH claims and the methylation hypothesis as a "one-size fits all" approach (which i understand it isn't, but still there is a wide degree of individual difference).

    If you have too much Phase I, however, I would think boosting the other pathways would make sense. Check with your doctor first, but adding a lot of cruciferous vegetables to the diet might help (broccoli, cauliflower, kale, brussel sprouts, etc.) Just be careful if you have thyroid issues, b/c those vegees can be goitrogenic.
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Thanks Mr. Kite,

    Interesting of course that you had the opposite problem of herbqueen -- that is a great example of why CFS/ME is so hard to treat, XMRV or no XMRV. We all may have different detox issues that if present, will all have to be dealt with in different ways.

    I need to try and get that test (if I win the lotto). I don't know if my phase 1 is overstimulated or not. I do take valium (which I'm trying to taper off of), and I think I read that benzos can stimulate phase 1, but don't quote me on that. I know something's very wrong however, as I definitely don't seem to be able to tolerate eggs (like I did before I got sick), no those cruciferous veggies you mentioned! :)

    thanks again,

    d.
  13. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hey Mr Kite--

    Do you have to take aspirin or acetomenophen (sp?) for that test?
    I hope not--I get severe reactions to both... which may already tell me my results in advance.
  14. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Yes, you do. Aspirin, tylenol, caffeine, and succinic acid. I think that's it. I don't tolerate aspirin or tylenol anymore, either, which is one reason I haven't redone the test.

    Oh for the easy days of just simple massive chemical injury! :tear:
  15. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    For my body--that is a chemical cocktail made in hell. Aspirin equals asthmatic reaction, caffeine equals severe heart palpitations, tylenol equals nausea. Scratch this idea.
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi again,

    So I'm wondering then...how did they suggest you go about 'fixing' this issue? And have you read or has anyone told you if this is genetic, or a result of too many toxic exposures, or...?

    thanks in advance.

    p.s. what is CP450?
  17. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I don't think they can determine whether it's genetic from that test. Imo, it was partially genetic, but caused more by damage to the enzymes by mercury and the chemical injury I sustained that caused the MCS, etc. To address it, the recommendations were for usual things like detox, nutritional supplements (molybdenum, etc.), chelation and so on.

    CP450 = cytochrome P-450 family of enzymes, the so-called "Phase I" detoxification enzymes.

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