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Pharmaceutical antibiotics in combination with Cowden or Buhner protocol

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by Thinktank, Jun 4, 2014.

  1. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I've been diagnosed with chronic neurolyme 6 months ago and been on IV and oral antibiotics since then. I experienced a huge relief during the IV treatment, especially cognitive, but that's now wearing off.
    Has anyone here ever combined pharmaceutical abx with a natural treatment like the Cowden or Buhner protocol?

    Completed:
    6 weeks IV ceftriaxone 2gr.
    6 weeks IV azithromycin 500mg

    Currently taking:
    200mg doxycycline
    500mg clarithromycine

    Additional therapy:
    GcMAF 25 ng once weekly
    10g I.M. hydroxy B12 2 X weekly
    VSL #3
    And some other supporting supplements.
     
    justy likes this.
  2. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    I think KdM advises some patients to go onto herbals following IV a/biotics.
    Samento, Burbur, Banderol etc. Not sure which protocol this is maybe Cowdens rings a bell?

    How did you feel whilst on the IV's?
     
  3. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Yeah that sounds as a part of the Cowden protocol.

    During IV, especially ceftriaxone i just felt generally better, i guess that's because of it's anti-inflammatory properties.
    I was still having brain fog but in a much lesser extent. All my cognitive functions improved. My energy was way up and all my inflammatory conditions were much milder, sometimes non-existent.

    I'll ask KDM what his thoughts are on pharmaceutical antibiotics in combination with banderol/samento at the same time. He already prescribed me burbur to deal with the poisoned feeling i'm having so perhaps he will agree with the full cowden protocol as addition to my current abx treatment.
     
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  4. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I used the Buhner herbal antiviral protocol and added some herbal antibiotics (and some herbals are both, for instance, Usnea) along with my usual acyclovir and doxycycline. I didn't notice that the herbals helped but on the other hand, I did not get sick with a new virus or bacterial infection last winter while I was doing the herbal protocols. I've read both books and he says that some herbal medicines are synergistic with some pharmaceuticals, and he mentioned acyclovir being one that has herbal synergies. I finally stopped the herbals because the tinctures recommended (there are so many of them) were too expensive to keep up. I now tincture medical marijuana as my only herbal medicine and I'm finding it very helpful with sleep and pain and maybe with my odd hip joint weakness, pain and stiffness. It seems to improve but so slowly that it's hard to tell that's what's doing the improvement.
     
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  5. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    My LLMD combines herbs with traditional abx all the time. I'm on cryptolepsis at the moment for babesia and I've also had some fun with the Byron White formulas and artemisinin. I think you have to decide what you are targeting and then look for the specific meds and herbals to treat. There are many options and protocols to follow.

    Your oral doses are about half as much as typically prescribed to be effective and don't include an agent to attack the cyst form (like Flagyl or Tindamax). That may be a problem.

    6 weeks IV may not be long enough either. Many with neurolyme do 6 months or more. What does your LLMD say about staying on the IV meds if they provided you with some relief?

    Biaxin (clarithromycin) can also be hard on the adrenals, if that is a weak area for you.
     
  6. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I combine also ABX (tetracycline) with herbals from the cowden protocol, and plan to introduce antiprotozoaire too.
    So far, I don't see problems with the mix.
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I'm treating Bartonella and as soon as I was up to dose on the pharm abx, I was told to introduce the Cowden herbals. I am finding that the herbals give me the same type, but an even stronger response than the pharm abx.

    So yes, combining them is a reasonable choice I think.

    Sushi
     
  8. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    @Thinktank
    My first treatment was the full Buhner and doxycycline. I had an encouraging improvement after just four weeks.
    Later the combination of the same herbals and various antibiotics still worked but not as well.
    I tried Cowden, or better the simplified combination of Samento and Banderol, on its own and for about three months with no change and therefore did not pursue the full protocol any further.

    If of any interest, the most helpful herbals were Cat's claw, Stephania and Knotweed for fatigue and general inflammation.Ashwagandha for sleep and Andrographis for the overstimulation I used to suffer from. For brain inflammation Stephania and andrographis worked well for me.
    In my experience herbals don't act as antimicrobials as abx do, they just lessen inflammation, some (like Knotweed) increase blood flow to the brain and possibly make abx more effective over time.

    I agree with Ema. For me Doxy only worked at 400mg daily at least initially, later it stopped working, having only anti-inflammatory effects as you described but the most effective abx was Flagyl which was effective across the board and not only for cystic forms.
    You may also need to do something for biofilm for abx to produce better results, especially if you notice they only reduce inflammation. And start exercising as soon as your condition allows, this is for both enhancing abx action and recovery. Best wishes.
     
  9. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    My doc is KDM, it think he knows what he's doing :) KDM tests the hell out of you before prescribing any treatment so the approach is tailored to my needs. Every 3 months i have to return for re-evaluation and testing. Medications and doses are then adjusted as needed.
    He not only treats the infection in me but also the immune system, gut and other things that cripple me. It's a treatment in a synergistic way. I guess that using higher doses of certain abx is not needed because he has a high success rate with lower dose abx treatment.

    Cyst and biofilm busters will probably be added later on.

    I had 12 weeks IV, in the long run it doesn't matter much if one uses IV or orals. I felt a huge relief with the ceftriaxone due to it's anti-inflammatory properties but probably not so much for killing the borrelia. I will ask him if i can go back on the ceftriaxone because it was an amazing experience.

    I have adrenal fatigue so that's an interesting thing you mentioned about the biaxin. Do you have a link to a study of some sort that shows the effect of clarithromycin on the adrenals?
     
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  10. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I'm going to order the books from Cowden and Buhner today.
    Are you still on pharm. abx or only using medical marijuana?
     
  11. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    How are you feeling so far? Any improvement after adding the herbals?
     
  12. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    Andrographis and stephania sound interesting. Those are from the Buhner protocol right? I will do some research on it, brain problems and overall inflammation are my no.1 problem.

    I used flagyl combined with a fluoroquinolone called ciproflaxin two years ago for an infection they found in my large intestine (which was a total misdiagnosis!). I had an extreme reaction to it but i don't know for sure if it was a herx or toxicity caused by ciproflaxin. After that treatment i've never been the same. It might be as well that the flagyl busted some cysts and made the borrelia infection more active because the treatment was only two weeks...

    I will discuss cysts and biofilms on my next appointment. I'm already able do exercise again :)
     
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  13. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I noticed a major improvement in what I think to be brain inflammation since I have been taking the combo. I suppose that is it due to the properties of the minocycline, in the same way you experimented cognitive improvement with the ceftriaxone.
    My sleep has improved a lot to a degree that I have now most of my nights with a straight 7 hours sleep, without nocturia like before. Sleep is more profound, and the general feeling is more refreshing when I wake up in the morning. That is huge!
    Moreover, I feel that I am more relaxed, somewhat less anxiety like symptoms, less noise sensitivity.
    The impact on general energy is still mild though, but I am just at the beginning of the journey (one month treatment of minocycline + herbals samento/burbur + artemisia annua tea).
    Nevertheless, the general impression is that it is effective.
     
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  14. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I plan to introduce Tinidazole (Fasigyn/Protocid) instead of flagyl in a couple of months. I am very frightened by the antiprotozoaire, as I had very tough rection to flagyl in the past. It was prescribed to me for amybes infestation (had several courses of it between 1997-2003). Due to it, I had terrible diziness to the point I couldn't stand at all, even sitting up was dificult, and I had to lie down all the time, feeling awful. I know that the flagyl has some neuro-toxicity - so does the tinidazole- and I hope that resuming the treatment won't lead to some neuro damage.

    Dr Petra Hopf-Seidel (neurologist/ borrelia specialist in Europe) mentionned somewhere (sorry, don't recall where) that because of it neuro toxicity, even some docs prescribe flagyl only once in a lifetime to avoid permanent neuro dammage!
    She proposes to take the tinidazole instead of it. I read the tinidazole leaflet though and it is not very comforting.:(

    When you say you had an extreme reaction to the drugs - how would you describe it ? Could it be the neuro-toxicity induced by the flagyl too? How long did you take it? (how many days in a row?).
     
  15. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    @Thinktank I still take acyclovir and doxycycline as a "substitute for an immune system." But I am now quite sure that the medical cannabis is helping with more than pain and sleep. Even this morning I find my groin/hip joint pain is a little less.
     
  16. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I took it for two weeks continiously. It felt just like fluoroquinlone poisoning. Muscles and joint ache, weight loss and muscle waste, brain fog, irritability, anxiety, diarrhea, malaise. Most severe symptoms lasted well until 4 to 5 months after treatment, some like muscle waste, inability to gain weight, joint aches etc. are milder but still not gone. I'm not sure if the current symptoms are from toxicity or from the lyme disease, or both? Anyway, i've never felt the same after the combination cipro + flagyl. It completely ruined me.

    @Iquitos, medical marijuana should be prescribed more often. Good to hear it helps you.
     
    Hanna likes this.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've been on the Buhner protocol for the past year. I can't really say that it's made a difference in my symptoms. I tested negative on Igenex and I'm wondering if it was due to the Buhner protocol modulating my immune system. I've had a rash where I was bitten by a tick so I'm pretty certain I have Lyme.

    I've tried a couple of the herbs in the Cowden protocol after reading about them in Dr. Horowitz's new book on Lyme. Banderol seems to cause a severe herx which triggers depression, pain, and anger.

    I've started taking Nystatin and antibiotics. So far Ceftin and Zithromax. Then Plaquenil and Bactrim. Bactrim has Trimethoprim which Buhner says is one of the best antibiotics for Bartonella. My doctor thinks I have bartonella partially because of the pain in my feet (although I might want to get tested at some point). According to Buhner and others, a combination of antibiotics works best for treating bartonella.

    Buhner thinks that the majority of people with bartonella can be treated primarily with herbs. One of the thing he focuses on in his new book about Lyme coinfections Bartonella and Mycoplasma is addressing the "Cytokine Cascade". Many of the herbs and supplements in his core protocol for those coinfections address inflammation.
     
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  18. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522845/

    Clarithroymycin increases the rate of cortisol clearance...which means that the adrenals have to work harder to produce enough because it is rapidly excreted. In a person with healthy adrenals, this isn't much of an issue. But if one is already struggling with low cortisol, it can turn into a crisis.
     
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  19. ana_bxl

    ana_bxl

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    Hummm. I am very interested in the combo abx-cowden. Do you know where can we find literature about it? Also, sometimes I get really stressed/anxious since I started samento+cumanda...anyone feels like it? Big kiss to everyone!
     
  20. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Samento can cause anxiety, and that's not a herx reaction just a potential side effect.
    You'll find a lot of in-depth information about samento / cat's claw in Buhner's book "Healing lyme".
    About cumanda I've never been able to find much about it but that applies to most Cowden's remedies.
     
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