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Perrin/lymph drainage/massage: makes sense or not?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Sasha, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Becca, no I have not seen the book. I have had lymphatic drainage, but not on the spine. However, I have had myofascial release which included spinal work. I have an inversion table also. Oh, and a bouncy thing. I try to keep my lymphatic system moving along.

    June
     
  2. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    The lengths we go to get well, lol

    Becca, is there a way to access the self mesage techniques without buying the book?
     
  3. Tom

    Tom windows exterminator

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  4. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Why do toxins build up, so that the lymph system has to deal with them?

    Hi, all.

    I've been giving some thought to how the benefits some PWMEs/PWCs experience from the Perrin technique, rebounding, pool exercise, dry skin brushing, and/or lymphatic massage could be related to the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis for the pathogenesis of ME/CFS.

    As you may know, the partial block in the methylation cycle that is hypothesized in this model (and demonstrated by lab testing with the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel) can be expected to disrupt the sulfur metabolism in the body in general, since it lies at the beginning of this set of metabolic pathways. Lab testing shows that the levels of cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate can all become abnormal in ME/CFS.

    The body's normal detoxication system depends to a large degree on these sulfur-containing substances. It can therefore be expected that its operation would be affected deleteriously in this disorder. Lab testing shows that this is indeed the case.
    Toxins of various types, which come into the body on a daily basis with food, water, and air, build up over time, because the normal "housekeeping" detox system is not working properly. This buildup of toxins likely leads to a greater rate of cell death than normal, producing debris that must be carried away by the lymph system.

    The depletion of glutathione, which is part of the vicious circle associated with the partial methylation cycle block in this hypothesis (and is demonstrated in lab testing) causes dysfunction of the body's antioxidant enzyme system and allows a buildup of oxidative stress, which is damaging to cell membranes, DNA, and proteins, and likely also leads to a greater rate of cell death. Elevated oxidative stress is one of the best-demonstrated biochemical abnormalities in ME/CFS.

    The immune system is another system that is impacted by the partial methylation cycle block and the other features that accompany it: depletion of glutathione, draining of folates from the cells, and "hijacking" of vitamin B12 by toxins. The cell-mediated immunity is known to be particularly inhibited by these deficits. This type of immune response is needed to combat viruses, fungi (including yeasts) and intracellular bacteria, including mycoplasma, chlamydia, and rickettsia. I think that explains why these are the types of infections commonly observed in ME/CFS. The failure of the immune system to successfully combat these pathogens would likely allow them to propagate more vigorously, and this would likely lead to a higher rate of cell death. Studies and individual lab tests have shown a higher rate of apoptosis (programmed cell death) and higher levels of cell-free DNA, also indicating a higher cellular death rate) in ME/CFS. Again, the more rapid cell death rate would present a greater load of debris to be handled by the immune system.

    In summary, I suggest that the dysfunction of the antioxidant enzyme system, the detoxication system, and the immune system in ME/CFS, all results of the partial methylation cycle block and its vicious circle partners, lead to higher rates of cell death, and a greater than normal load of debris to be carried by the lymph system. As has been noted, the lymph system depends on muscle movements to exercise its pumping action. Because of the physical fatigue associated with ME/CFS, people who have this disorder exhibit lower physical activity. I suggest that the combination of the greater debris load and the lower physical activity are what conspire to clog up the lymph system, and this is the reason that efforts to increase flow in this system can be beneficial, though they may initially cause detox symptoms to appear, as the toxins are mobilized from the lymph system into the blood stream via the thoracic duct on the left side of the upper chest, and its partner channel on the right side.

    If the above does truly represent the situation, then a more fundamental treatment would be an effort to lift the partial methylation cycle block. I have proposed such a treatment, and it does appear to bring significant improvement to most PWMEs/PWCs who try it. Information is available at www.cfsresearch.org by clicking on CFS/ME and then on my name. It might be most helpful to read the last entry first, since it is most recent and was written for a more general audience. More technical papers can also be found there.

    I want to note that I do recommend taking the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute's methylation pathways panel before doing this treatment, both to verify whether this vicious circle is present, and also to provide baseline data for comparison later, to gauge the progress of the treatment. I also want to emphasize that it is important to be working with a physician while on this treatment, because a small number of people have reported experiencing serious adverse effects while on it, even though it consists only of (targeted) nonprescription nutritional supplements.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  6. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Rich,

    I am having trouble finding information on this specific lab and test. I'm not certain this something my ND or DO would know about already,
    I'd like to be able to point them to it. Also, when ordering the panel, are there any specifications to be aware of?

    Thanks!
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Leela.

    Here is the contact information for ordering this panel, and comments about how to interpret the results. Your physicians would just order the "methylation pathways panel."

    Best regards,

    Rich


    Methylation Pathways Panel

    This panel will indicate whether a person has a partial methylation cycle block and/or glutathione depletion. I recommend that this panel be run before deciding whether to consider treatment for lifting the methylation cycle block. I am not associated with the lab that offers this panel.

    The panel requires an order from a physician or a chiropractor. The best way to order the panel is by fax, on a clinician’s letterhead.


    Available from:

    Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 4930
    South Amboy, NJ 08879
    USA
    Phone: (732) 721-1234
    Fax: (732) 525-3288

    Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.

    Dr. Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., is willing to help clinicians with interpretation of the panel by phone, or the guidance below can be used:



    Interpretation of the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    Methylation Pathways Panel

    by
    Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.


    Several people have asked for help in interpreting the results of
    their Health Diagnostics and Research Institute methylation pathway panels. Here are my suggestions for doing so. They are based on my study of the
    biochemistry involved, on my own experience with interpreting more
    than 120 of these panel results to date, and on discussion of some of
    the issues with Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., at the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute.

    The panel consists of measurement of two forms of glutathione
    (reduced and oxidized), adenosine, S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) , S-
    adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), and seven folic acid derivatives or
    vitamers.

    According to Dr. Audhya, the reference ranges for each of these
    metabolites was derived from measurements on at least 120 healthy
    male and female volunteer medical students from ages 20 to 40, non-
    smoking, and with no known chronic diseases. The reference ranges
    extend to plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean of
    these measurements.

    Glutathione: This is a measurement of the concentration of the
    reduced (active) form of glutathione (abbreviated GSH) in the blood
    plasma. From what I've seen, most people with chronic fatigue
    syndrome (PWCs) have values below the reference range. This means
    that they are suffering from glutathione depletion. As they undergo
    the simplified treatment approach to lift the methylation cycle
    block, this value usually rises into the normal range over a period
    of months. I believe that this is very important, because if
    glutathione is low, vitamin B12 is likely unprotected and reacts with toxins
    that build up in the absence of sufficient glutathione to take them
    out. Vitamin B12 is thus “hijacked,” and not enough of it is able to
    convert to methylcobalamin, which is what the methylation cycle needs
    in order to function normally. Also, many of the abnormalities and
    symptoms in CFS can be traced to glutathione depletion.

    Glutathione (oxidized): This is a measurement of the concentration
    of the oxidized form of glutathione (abbreviated GSSG) in the blood
    plasma. In many (but not all) PWCs, it is elevated above the normal
    range, and this represents oxidative stress.

    Adenosine: This is a measure of the concentration of adenosine in the
    blood plasma. Adenosine is a product of the reaction that converts
    SAH to homocysteine. In some PWCs it is high, in some it is low, and
    in some it is in the reference range. I don't yet understand what
    controls the adenosine level, and I suspect there is more than one
    factor involved. In most PWCs who started with abnormal values, the
    adenosine level appears to be moving into the reference range with
    methylation cycle treatment, but more data are needed.

    S-adenosymethionine (RBC) (SAM): This is a measure of the
    concentration of SAM in the red blood cells. Most PWCs have values
    below the reference range, and treatment raises the value. S-
    adenosylmethionine is the main supplier of methyl groups in the body,
    and many biochemical reactions depend on it for their methyl
    groups. A low value for SAM represents low methylation capacity, and
    in CFS, it appears to result from a partial block at the enzyme methionine
    synthase. Many of the abnormalities in CFS can be tied to lack of
    sufficient methyation capacity.

    S-adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) (SAH): This is a measure of the
    concentration of SAH in the red blood cells. In CFS, its value
    ranges from below the reference range, to within the reference range,
    to above the reference range. Values appear to be converging toward
    the reference range with treatment. SAH is the product of reactions
    in which SAM donates methyl groups to other molecules.

    Sum of SAM and SAH: When the sum of SAM and SAH is below 268
    micromoles per deciliter, it appears to suggest the presence of
    upregulating polymorphisms in the cystathione beta synthase (CBS)
    enzyme, though this may not be true in every case.

    Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 also represents low
    methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of
    concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining the
    methylation capacity.

    5-CH3-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-methyl
    tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is normally the most
    abundant form of folate in the blood plasma. It is the form that
    serves as a reactant for the enzyme methionine synthase, and is thus
    the most important form for the methylation cycle. Many PWCs have a
    low value, consistent with a partial block in the methylation cycle.
    The simplified treatment approach includes FolaPro, which is
    commercially produced 5-CH3-THF, so that when this treatment is used,
    this value rises in nearly every PWC. If the concentration of 5-CH3-
    THF is within the reference range, but either SAM or the ratio of SAM
    to SAH is below the reference values, it suggests that there is a
    partial methylation cycle block and that it is caused by
    unavailability of sufficient bioactive B12, rather than
    unavailability of sufficient folate. I have seen this frequently,
    and I think it demonstrates that the “hijacking” of B12 is the root
    cause of most cases of partial methylation cycle block. Usually
    glutathione is low in these cases, which is consistent with lack of
    protection for B12, as well as with toxin buildup.

    10-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 10-formyl
    tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. It is usually on the low side in PWCs.
    This form of folate is involved in reactions to form purines, which
    form part of RNA and DNA as well as ATP.

    5-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-formyl
    tetrahydrofolate (also called folinic acid) in the blood plasma.
    Most but not all PWCs have a value on the low side. This form is not used
    directly as a substrate in one-carbon transfer reactions, but it can
    be converted into other forms of folate. It is one of the
    supplements in the simplified treatment approach, which helps to
    build up various other forms of folate.

    THF: This is a measure of the concentration of tetrahydrofolate in
    the blood plasma. In PWCs it is lower than the mean normal value of 3.7
    nanomoles per liter in most but not all PWCs. This is the
    fundamental chemically reduced form of folate from which several
    other reduced folate forms are made. The supplement folic acid is
    converted into THF by two sequential reactions catalyzed by
    dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR). THF is also a product of the
    reaction of the methionine synthase enzyme, and it is a reactant in
    the reaction that converts formiminoglutamate (figlu) into
    glutamate. If figlu is high in the Genova Diagnostics Metabolic
    Analysis Profile, it indicates that THF is low.

    Folic acid: This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in
    the blood plasma. Low values suggest folic acid deficiency in the
    current diet. High values are sometimes associated with inability to
    convert folic acid into other forms of folate, such as because of
    polymorphisms in the DHFR enzyme. They may also be due to high
    supplementation of folic acid.

    Folinic acid (WB): This is a measure of the concentration of folinic
    acid in the whole blood. See comments on 5-formyl-THF above. It
    usually tracks with the plasma 5-formyl-THF concentration.

    Folic acid (RBC): This is a measure of the concentration of folic
    acid in the red blood cells. The red blood cells import folic acid
    when they are initially being formed, but during most of their
    approximately four-month life, they do not normally import, export, or use
    it. They simply serve as reservoirs for it, giving it up when they
    are broken down. Many PWCs have low values. This can be
    caused by a low folic acid status in the diet over the previous few
    months, since the population of RBCs at any time has ages ranging
    from zero to about four months. However, in CFS it can also be
    caused by damage to the cell membranes, which allows folic acid to
    leak out of the cells. Dr. Audhya reports that treatment with omega-
    3 fatty acids can raise this value over time.
     
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  8. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Thanks, Rich, this is exceedingly helpful.
    Do you have an idea of how long before the panel is done one should stop
    glutathione/NAC or other supplements?
     
  9. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Rich
    With respect to the omega 3 fatty acid supplementation, would one need to be taking carnitine to get the benefit of these fatty acids?
    thanks
     
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Leela.

    It doesn't seem to matter. The parameters measured in this panel are pretty stable and not very sensitive to supplements, unless they are the supplements that lift the methylation cycle block, i.e. the combination of hydroxocobalamin or methylcobalamin and a chemically reduced folate (folinic acid or 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate). Even then, it takes some months to get big changes. You can see this in the talk I gave at the Yasko Protocol Conference, which is the most recent entry at www.cfsresearch.org under CFS/M.E. and my name. The women in the clinical study kept taking the supplements as they got subsequent methylation panels run, and the results came out with a pretty smooth variation over time.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, aquariusgirl.

    No, carnitine is used to usher fatty acids into the mitochondria to be beta oxidized so that they can be fed to the Krebs cycle and burned for fuel. The goal in taking omega-3 fatty acids is to use them structurally, as in cell membranes. The body will selectively use them for these purposes, if they are available.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  12. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    thank you.
     
  13. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    I couldn't afford the testing but have been on Rich's "Simplified Protocol" for about 10 months now and have seen notable improvements in some symptoms and medication tolerance. I need to give SAMe another try and see if I can tolerate it now too.

    Thanks Rich
     
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Cloud.

    Thanks for posting this update. I hope things continue to go in a good direction for you.

    Best regards, and Merry Christmas!

    Rich
     
  15. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Thanks for all the great info, Rich.
    Have a wonderful holiday everyone!
     
  16. alex1968

    alex1968

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    Hi all,

    I am new on here, firstly thanks for the information about Perrin I read it on here about a month ago, it fitted very well with what I believe that of the problems I have namely toxic issues. Well in the past I have had methylation pathway issues (I think I have them again, so just starting on clearing the methylation issues (thanks richvank I am starting your protocol today, been on B12 injections up till now with no success TBH, my guess is the methylation issues are in the way). I brought the Perrin book read it front to back, my children have a trampoline in the back garden, so I gave rebounding a go, well day 1, 2 minutes and I was done, slowly building up within a couple of weeks 15 minutes no problem. Booked an appointment with a local osteopath who specalises in the Perrin Techneque, within 10 minutes of the start of the appointment he found that I had whiplash, the injury goes back 7-8 years. I am two week in, my energy levels have improved beyond all expectations, my brain fog has cleared almost completely. I don't believe that alone the Perrin Techneque will get me 100% better as there are many other things going on, but it has improved my quality of life from being house bound to being able to walk for several hours per day (a month ago 1 mile walk would have finished me off for several days). I firmly believe in my case that the head injury could have caused a blockage in my neck this has allowed all the other problems to become much worse or even cause the CFS in the first place, my body has spent several years not working properly so it is going to take a long time to get to proper health, fix the underlying problems and the body hopefully will do the rest.

    thanks for the information in this post.

    ATVB

    Alex
     
  17. Lucinda

    Lucinda Senior Member

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    For people who have felt better cause of Perrin - how long did it take before you started feeling better?

    I've gone for 8 sessions now, and still don't feel that my health has improved. I don't know how long I should carry on for before thinking that maybe it isn't for me.
     
  18. alex1968

    alex1968

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    hi Lucinda,

    My improvements were very quick, but this was mainly due to the whiplash that was found straight away, there seems to be a number of people that have had head/neck injuries that have done very well with the Perrin Technique. I think it has to be put in context, the lymphatic system is only part of the problem, a slow lymphatic system is going to slow the removal of toxins from the body, again for me, after the first visit my liver was working very hard, I got boils and spots on a number of places where the lymph nodes are (a good thing in my view) so it got something moving. For me the Perrin Technique is part of a very big picture, my osteopath agrees. Are you doing the massages yourself between visits?, I you taking milk thistle to help the liver? What diagnosis was you given, e.g. mild, moderate, severe as this is relevent to how long the Perrin Technique will take. How often are you going to the osteopath?

    ATVB

    Alex
     
  19. Lucinda

    Lucinda Senior Member

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    Hi Alex

    Thanks for your response. In answer to your questions:

    Are you doing the massages yourself between visits?

    Yes, but I haven't been doing them everyday. I'm going to make a renewed effort to though.

    Are you taking milk thistle to help the liver?

    Yes.

    What diagnosis was you given, e.g. mild, moderate, severe as this is relevent to how long the Perrin Technique will take.

    Well I was scored between a 3 and a 3 and a half. I guess that's severe? Not the most severe though as a 1 is the worst as far as I remember.

    How often are you going to the osteopath?

    Once a week.

    Glad to hear you benefitted from Perrin :)

    - Lucinda
     
  20. alex1968

    alex1968

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    Hi Lucinda,

    I am doing 3 different massages:-

    Face + neck, whenever I remember, the neck one I do on the train, walking down the road etc, very easy.

    chest one, 2-3 times per day.

    Even though it is not part of the Perrin Tech, I do a groin one too.

    Interestingly I got little boils and spots over the lymph glans after the first visit this is a good sign of toxins moving around, funny things like feeling worse than usual but for short periods of time, itching in different places. The biggest change is I have not sufferered a cold properly for ages (years), all my bugs have just knocked me for six (sleeping all day etc) for 4-8 weeks then the symptoms of the bug come at the end, Well this week I have had my first normal cold with no sleeping, looks like it only lasted for 5-6 days.

    Motion is very important, the lymph system slows down very quickly with inactivity, even rolling the shouders/arms backward and forward is good.

    I have always felt that there was a toxic build-up for me, sometimes I felt like I had been poisoned, so for me Perrin looks a significant part of the picture along with a number of other areas. Other things I am doing at the same time are NLP (gupta) for stress management, B12 (hydro) shots, methylation pathway protocols (B6 p5p) and loading up on B12 (meth and 5deoxy) , CoQ10, carnitine, folic acid. All together are making a difference.

    ATVB

    Alex
     

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