The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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PEM and why women get CFS more often than men

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Kimsie, Dec 25, 2014.

  1. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    I am adding a new part to my hypothesis about these mitochondrial dysfunction illnesses. It will undoubtedly change as I learn more, and maybe it will get dropped, but I thought it might be interesting for some of the people here.

    A few weeks ago I thought that PEM was caused by a person using the pathway to take 2 ADP and make 1 ATP and 1 AMP, as per Sarah Myhill's hypothesis. But now I have changed my mind because of all the posting here about how baking soda helps lessen PEM.

    In these mitochondrial dysfunction illnesses alternative pathways to ATP production must be used, because the electron transport chain (ETC) is inhibited and the person is not making enough ATP through oxidative phosphorylation (the TCA cycle and ETC). The only alternative energy pathways that I know about so far are gylcolysis and the folate cycle. I think that people with ME/CFS use the glycolysis pathway heavily, and it is the delayed effects of the buildup of lactic acid that causes PEM.

    I hypothesize that the ability to use the glycolysis pathway as an althernative energy source may be greater in women than in men because it can help women in childbirth. So, many men are not able to use the glycolysis pathway enough to cause PEM. The folate pathway is next in line after glycolysis as a backup for energy and the majority of men start right off with the folate pathway as the alternative energy source when they have mitochondrial dysfunction (if they have enough folate, otherwise they are tired all the time).

    This would also explain why although men and women get schizophrenia at the same rate, men get it a couple of years earlier than women do on the average. Women start out using the glycolysis pathway more than men, but as the mitochondrial failure gets worse they are forced to start using the folate pathway, too, and that's when susceptible women start having the symptoms of schizophrenia, because schizophrenia symptoms are caused by using the folate pathway, and not the glycolysis pathway.

    In order to get PEM or schizophrenia from these pathways, you have to have the genetic susceptibility for those symptoms.
     
  2. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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  3. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    Sounds plausible to me but I'm no expert.

    But how about men are less likely to develop ME/CFS because they have a greater mass of type II fast twitch (and glycolytic) muscle fibre so can compensate physically to a greater extent for the loss of aerobic capacity?

    I can still manage some resistance training but zero aerobic.
     
    SOC likes this.
  4. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    Will have to look at this more closely some other time. First I hear of baking soda lessening PEM, perhaps I am taking it in some form??

    GG
     
  5. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @Kimsie What do you mean about baking soda lessens PEM and I had not heard this before either? How do you use the baking soda? Also, do you mean for muscle pain or for any symptoms of PEM (as people use the word "PEM" to mean all kinds of different reactions IMO.)
     
  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @ggingues and @Gingergrrl - check out these threads:

    The first one, see pone's post near the bottom and keep reading the thread. This was the first I had heard of baking soda helping with PEM. It sounded absurd to me, but had nothing to lose so tried it and it helped:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylfolate-and-mercury-detoxing.30967/page-3

    Also see this:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lase-no-pem-after-exercise.34446/#post-537002

    I have been crashing faithfully for 16 years and last week was the first I had heard of this.

    I have also found that taking baking soda increases my need for potassium. So it's very important to stay on top of that. I take potassium gluconate, also low-sodium V8 which has 900 mg. potassium and only 50 calories in an 8 oz glass.
     
  7. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Or you could just take potassium bicarbonate.
     
  8. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @Mary I looked at the thread but it seemed to be about MTHFR and folate and the second was about exercise.

    Is it possible to explain to me in a dumbed down version what you mean re: using baking soda? I have no familiarity with this at all. Do you mean like an Epsom salt bath or a supplement or some other form?

    What specifically does it do and when you use the word PEM are you just referring to muscle pain for people who exercise or something else? I am at much, much lower level of functioning so not sure if this pertains to me?
     
  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. It's an alkalizer. You mix with water and drink it. If you tend to suffer high acidity (acidosis), it might help. But I'm generally not a fan as it will neutralize your stomach acid. When I tried it I got symptoms of alkalosis. It also gave me nausea and reflux.
     
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  10. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @adreno how would someone know if they suffer from high acidity? I don't think I have ever been tested for this. Is it a blood test or urine test (or neither?)
     
  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    There are various tests, I'm no expert on this. Or you could just give it try and see if it helps. High lactate is supposedly pretty common in ME/CFS.
     
  12. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    I've tried potassium bicarb in the past and developed alkalosis. I wasn't sure if I was going to survive for about 12 hours. Another problem with oral bicarb supplementation is that alkalising your gut is bad as it will worsen dysbiosis including candida issues.
     
  13. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anion_gap
     
  14. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Here's another thread on the topic:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...s-and-my-bp-went-up-a-tad-and-sjogrens.23477/
     
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  15. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    An informative quote from that thread:

     
    L'engle, MeSci, Gingergrrl and 2 others like this.
  16. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    Hi Mij,

    Yes, that is interesting. Of the illnesses that I think are related to mitochondrial dysfunction (most being included in the cysteine/sulfate ratio study) schizophrenia is the only one that doesn't have a higher ratio of female to male, and in that one, the females take longer to develop the illness. (These include fibro, MS, RA, IBS and Alzheimer's, too)

    I have to give this more thought. Right now I think that female hormone changes can increase stress and affect the timing of when they become symptomatic, but I think there is a genetic element related to gender in these illnesses that does not relate to hormones, and does relate to the alternative pathways for energy production.

    If that is the case, then the main contributor to the neurological symptoms would have to be the use of the gylcolysis pathway for energy production in the brain (not in muscle). It's normal to use glycolysis for energy in the muscle during periods of exercise.

    Have any people here with CFS ever tested low in lactate?

    I would like to say that I am not stating any position on whether baking soda is a good idea or not, it's just that if it does help some people avoid PEM, that tells us something about PEM.
     
  17. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    @Kimsie I tested low in lactate on my OAT. 4.6 (ref range 10-100)
     
  18. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    @Sidereal Wow, thank you for letting me know, and I am not going to try this treatment but was curious about it b/c I had never heard of it before. I had tested positive for leaky gut and candida in the past and worked really hard on a GI protocol that was very effective so don't want to mess this up.

    It sounds like this is a treatment for reducing muscle pain after exercise and I am so far from that point that it is not relevant for me now anyway.
     
  19. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    How is lactate tested? I don't remember being tested for this one either but have had a lot of tests and sometimes they have different names.
     
  20. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Good suggestion - will have to try that.
     

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