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Paradoxical folate deficiency true or false???

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cobain_justinsane, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

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    Hello all

    I am not trying to stir the pot or step on anyone's toes here, I'm simply looking for opinions, experiences or any data/ research you can present.

    I have read that folic acid will interfere with the absorption of methylfolate but what about the folate specifically from vegetables????

    I know fredd and a few others on here really stand by this theory.

    I ask this because I happen to eat a lot of vegetables and have begun to take methylfolate but don't want to render the methylfolate I'm taking useless because of veggie folate. I also don't want to have to take 30 tables of methylfolate a day to counter the vegetable folate.

    So what's the deal?? Does veggie folate really block methylfolate or no?? Just in some people? If so, who and why?

    Please feel free to share, but please stay on topic!

    Thanks everyone!
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    This happened to me. I wrote of my experiences in the first couple pages of the High Methylfolate thread. Short version: I was continuing to show signs of folate deficiency, continuing to raise my doses to 25mg. When I stopped my veggie intake, my needs went down to 15mg, no deficiency sx.
     
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  3. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    I found something on CNS Spectrums by Stephen Stahl, MD, PhD. He states L-methylfolate precursors can compete because they bind on folate receptors, preventing L-methylfolate from reaching the brain.

    Stahl cites the following older studies:

    Smith, Hyland, and Kendall. Clinical role of pteridine therapy in tetrahydrobiopterin deficiency.
    Spector and Lorenzo. Folate transport in the central nervous system.
    Wu and Pardridge. Blood-brain barrier transport of reduced folic acid.


    Dbkita talked about veggie folate. I also found a graphic here. Dietary folate is Dihydrofolate, which still needs to convert to L-methylfolate and can be hindered by MTHF polymorphisms. Rich Van K. proposed Freddd might have an MTHFS polymorphism (separate from MTHFR) causing his intolerance to both folinic and vegetable folate.

    (Note: The calcium salt form of L-methylfolate is used in Metafolin, Deplin, and Douglas Labs L-5-MTHF. The glucosamine salt form Quatrefolic is used in Seeking Health L-5-MTHF. See here. Please note the different active and lesser "bad" forms here.)


    Please do not take 30 tablets of L-5-MTHF. Such a high amount this early with a B12 can be disastrous. I have only heard of someone like Freddd attempting extremely high doses like this, after titrating over time. Personally, I recommend Caledonia's Start Low and Go Slow.

    If you are worried about the vegetable folate blocking the L-5-MTHF, then perhaps you can take it at different times and/or limit the amount you eat. Maybe switch them up, taking L-5-MTHF one day and veggie folate the other day.
     
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  4. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    NJ
    This forum caught my attention because I am having trouble with vegetables on and off for many years. They make me feel tense- I sometimes sleep with my fists clenched. And caffeinated. Idk if this could be paradoxical folate deficiency or not.

    A couple of weeks ago I decided to try methylation with tiny crumbs of methyfolate and B12. I felt great!!! Low K for sure but life-changingly great! Then I started reading about B12 deficiencies and decided I should correct them first so I took 500 mcg one day of methylB12. Big mistake! And that has given be panic attacks ever since- even though I stopped all of them.

    Gauging from my reaction to mB12 I figured the paradoxical deficiency is real. I eat nothing but veggies and broth and since that B12 dose the veggies seem to make me worse than ever. Taking minerals helps I think but still have awful panic attacks with veggies that wake me up in the night.

    I want to start back with the cookie crumbs again but I am worried now it will trigger a paradicoxal deficiency and I am pretty wimpy about taking large doses of anything, esp. at first.

    However, lots of great doctors like Ben Lynch advocate low and slow- but I am not sure if it is just to make their patients feel safe or what, judging from what Fredd said. I have been traumatized over the years by so many things that low and slow is all I can handle mentally right now. I hope by taking a little of all three- adeno and methylB12 and methylfolate I can avoid the deficiency.
     
  5. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    NJ
    @Alea Ishikawa : Brilliant explanation and great link- really helped! Thanks!
     
  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I re-read this yet again. And then twigged. For some of us, the vegetable folinic is just not good. It doesn't matter when it's taken in relation to methylfolate. It still can't convert into the correct form.
     
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  7. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    I don't really have much advice to add, but I just wanted to let you know that I share your concerns about taking supplements, even at low doses.

    After the first few days of taking B12, I doubled my dose from 250mcg to 500mcg and ended up in the ER with delusions, headache and the fastest heartbeat I've ever felt. It felt like my heart was going to beat out of my chest. Other nights I would twitch or wake up in the middle of the night not being able to feel my arms. It was so scary. I wanted to get better and heal myself from low B12, yet I was experiencing very scary symptoms.

    Looking back I think it was low potassium from B12, but then again that's just a guess. I seem to be feeling better since taking 4 grams of potassium per day in salts (yes, that's 4 grams) and my dose of B12 is only 30mcg. Yet I'm still worried that if I increase the dose, at any time in the future, that it might make me anxious again.

    I know it's "only" B12 or "only" methylfolate, but when you've had these reactions in the past, it makes you very hesitant to even start on the smallest dose, or to keep your dose going up. I will probably need to add methylfolate into my supplement regime, and even though I've had folic acid no problems, it's still a new vitamin that I don't know how I'll react to, just like how I reacted to B12, so I'm worried, even though I want to get better.

    So I can totally understand where you're coming from...
     
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  8. Adlyfrost

    Adlyfrost Senior Member

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    NJ
    Wow- what a horror story with B12! Thanks for sharing that. (I wonder if people who are not sick with CFS/ME have this problem with B12- if not, it could be a biomarker for diagnosis.)

    I think my problems might be with potassium too- but whenever I start to titrate up on K I feel worse- dizzy, thumping heart beat or low heartbeat, cold sweat- like a panic attack. Before I can go up on methylation supplements I have to first be able to tolerate K/minerals.

    I wonder if I have a mitochondrial ion transport problem? I am waiting for my order of adenosylcobalmin to come in- hoping it will give my cells the energy they need to take in minerals. Also make sure I have thiamine, taurine and magnesium and trace mins- still most of my k comes from coconut water because the side-effects with K pills/powders.

    But even if I could take in lots of mins, I would still be afraid to go up. Hoping need for k and methylfolate will level off after a while on a small dose and I will be comfortable going up incrementally- but that doesn't seem to be Fred's experience.

    And then there is always hydroxocobalamin- which Fred thinks is useless- and for which I have heard no methylation success stories- don't know if there are anyway. Wonder if anyone has positive success stories with it? From what I read, Fred thinks it could be worse than mB12 because when it does kick in it could surprise and K deficiency could sneak up.
     
  9. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

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    I get monthly B12 injections (hydroxocobalamin) and feel they do me some good. My depression in the days following my first injection lifted quite noticeably.
     
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  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Lynch advises to always take the methylfolate with the methyl-b12. Maybe taking only the b12 was what caused the problem? Also, it might be some other compound(s) in the vegetables that make you wired -- like salicylates, oxalates, etc.?
     
    Adlyfrost likes this.

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