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panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of unsuccessfully addressing methyl trapping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fprefect, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    If he is in pre-acidosis state, potassium is harmful. He is probably dealing with a lot of ammonia, which is very acidifying.
     
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  2. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    the added 400mg of potassium seems workable for now, with caveats.
    • tinnitus seems worse. not sure what is causing this as documented culprits of zinc, b12 and magnesium (i think) make this worse rather than better. i suspect some increasing deficiency.
    • unclear whether added potassium is causing added allodynia.
    • think it improved mild cramps, but also made them worse, presumably by reducing sodium.
    • touch wood, but i think it might have improved mental clarity a bit.
    i will probably try balancing sodium and potassium next, by adding 15mg sodium and then adding 135mg potassium or more till mental clarity increases back to where it was.

    @JaimeS, sorry about the delayed response.

    haha .. nice image with the sawdust. i am not impressed with the centrum. however, i am currently quite sensitive to it, which i thought was due to the ingredients. specifically, the folic acid. i hadn't considered the fillers.

    do you think there is some deficiency a different multi would address better? i am not trying to be abrasive. i am just trying to understand since i am not thinking clearly. wow. you must be taking *a lot* of tiny doses! sounds like a big hassle. i did try searching for a replacement, but with no/very low folic acid/methylfolate (due to my presumably poor b12 status). the only such animal i spotted was Yasko's multi with 25mcg folic acid/folate, of which i can't tolerate even 1/800 of a pill. if you know of a suitable product, i'd be open to testing it so i can get off the folic acid/folate in the centrum.

    hmm. i take 50mcg of enzymatic therapy methyl b12 and 45mcg of Yasko's adenosyl b12 drops. i don't count the b12 in the centrum since i don't take it sublingually and i expect my intrinsic factor is messed up.

    Ford
     
  3. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    hi @Misfit Toy.

    thank you for the reminder. sorry about the delayed response. actually, i don't recall anyone who hasn't had issues chelating. i am sorry you had such a rough time on it.

    i need to figure out how to sustainably stop 600mg ALA first before chelation.

    i haven't found any multi with low/no folic acid/methylfolate (due to current methyl trapping) other than Yasko's and i can't tolerate that.

    @Gondwanaland, that sounds sensible given my current state. this is a complicated web since mercury is messing with my minerals and possibly adrenal function. i want to test for low aldosterone first so i can try to balance sodium and potassium first. not sure what to do about added allodynia and possibly added tinnitus from potassium though.

    hi @aturtles.

    sorry about the delayed response. i can empathise with being in a nightmare land. i am glad you got out of it. i am trying to stop folic acid, but i seem dependent on the b vitamin drink (berocca performance) it comes in. i am trying to figure out how to reduce berocca without added (unacceptable) symptoms.

    it would be nice if some doctors' visits came with a money (and time and energy) back guarantee.


    Ford
     
  4. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    i meant to trim the caveman beard due to the increased allodynia bugging me, but only by 1/3 due to low mental clarity that usually appears when i make the allodynia worse (by trimming the beard). oddly, i trimmed twice as much in a shorter amount of time and mental clarity didn't decrease as much. i'm not complaining, but i'm wondering if stopping the rye bread (has oxalates, gluten and prebiotics) made this difference or something else resulted in this.

    Ford
     
  5. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond. i am feeling worse today, probably partly from PEM after trimming 2/3 of the beard.

    Ford
     
  6. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    not sure whether completely over the pem. i've had bags under my eyes yesterday and today. not sure if this is due to stopping the rye bread previously. someone on PR noticed bags under their eyes decreased from stopping a probiotic. perhaps this is similar? ie. some change in gut bacteria.

    more sluggish after methyl b12 dose was on large side. not sure what to do about my sensitivity to dose changes (1mg change of tablet weight) being smaller than the error on my weighing scale (3-5mg). i would use a dropper instead, but they seem even more inconsistent. any ideas?

    Ford
     
  7. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    in order to improve mental clarity, i am torn between testing a low oxalate diet and addressing adrenal function / salt and potassium intake. my OAT from last year showed oxalates at 5x normal. however, quite aside from dumping, the diet sounds like it would change my supplement requirements, including magnesium and zinc, which would probably make the methyl trap worse. on the other hand, cashews make the mental clarity worse. adrenal function seems simpler, but perhaps less effective and will increase tinnitus and reduce mental clarity till i figure it out.

    @Kathevans, sorry about the late reply. i haven't been thinking clearly. thank you for the ideas.

    i've been wondering if coffee enemas might make the methyl trap worse. i would like some kind of oil, but as of 2 or more years ago, tiny amounts resulted in mental clarity dropping quite a lot for a few hours. no idea why. my CSA from last year showed digestion/absorption within normal range, surprisingly. i expect that has changed though.

    bummer about the iodine deficiency. we don't seem to appreciate the automatic balancing act our bodies do till we don't have that. i am hopeful we will all get back that balance eventually. i am making a list of tests to (re)do. iodine is now on the list.

    the salt i use is (a crappy) sea salt, which includes anti caking agent and no mention of other electrolytes. i don't know if this is better than the added variables from a sea salt with other electrolytes.

    i would like to take salt separately from potassium, but my potassium intake is spread out through the day and i don't know if i can tolerate more potassium at 1 go. perhaps i should test.

    Ford
     
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  8. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    in other news, i am still too low on mental clarity to respond to all posts. :rolleyes:

    i wonder if the panic is messing with my decision making by making me more wary of everything.

    @Kathevans, i was referring to your producing methylfolate from dietary folate. with low b12, that could cause pain too. i can empathise with the frustration of discovering years down the road that something you thought was helpful was making things worse. how did the added folate mess with your sleep? more pain or you felt less rested even without pain?

    i hope you got away with the cleaning. my room is a mess also. cfs makes for a good excuse for that. at least it is good for something!

    if you haven't already done it, assuming you have other vitamin/mineral supports in place, i suggest even smaller doses of b12 until you find something that doesn't keep you awake. touch wood, but i tolerate about 47-50mcg without waking extra and it helps with pain somewhat. 53mcg wakes me up more. i am hopeful you'll get there and find a dose that works for you.

    Ford
     
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  9. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Actually, after fiddling around with the B-Minus, I stopped that, too, and have reverted to the very low B-complex by Nature Made. Initially, I tried adding extra B6, but simple Pyridoxine and then p-5-p and realized in short order that it was giving me a delayed anxiety reaction, perhaps even worse with the p-5-p, so I stopped it. I'm really trying to just slow down. It was clear from my recent blood work that the only B I was low in was actually B3, Niacin, which she told me to supplement at 100 mg /day. Not so much--though there is another 50 mg of B3 in the B-complex. The over-methylation that I'm pretty sure has been chugging along and tying me in knots may be easing a bit, but I'm going to try to sit tight and just observe. I'm slowly increasing my Vit D. That's about it.

    As for the folate in food causing pain, perhaps. I have been having a low-grade headache at night. But my sleep is better than it was even a week ago--though this isn't saying much. I did read on another thread that someone had great success with Adeno B-12 and I'm going to go back to some of Freddd's posts. It seems to me that pain syndromes with soreness at the points where the muscle attaches to the tendons may benefit form this. I need to do more research.

    I know B-12 is what I need. And I'll get there. For the moment, I'm relieved to be off the B-complex that was causing so much over-methylation for so many years, and trying to slowly increase some co-factors. For now I'm going to stay away from anything that strongly effects methylation--like the Methyl- B-12 and the Methyl Folate.

    The exercise actually helped my sleep, so I'm trying to move around more even if I'm pushing. And the epsom salt baths always help with both pain and relaxation.

    Sleep tight!

    Kathleen
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
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  10. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i'm still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    i guess i will slowly try a low oxalate diet, mostly since i'm not thinking clearly enough to think of anything more feasible for now.

    @Gondwanaland, thank you for putting this in a form even i can understand in my current state. i added your list of tests to my own list. hopefully, i can move on that in a few weeks when i am waking nearer everyone else's lunchtime.

    Ford
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This must be transitioned slowly, otherwise you can get worse.

    I think you are taking the wrong supplements or wrong doses. Whenever I take a supplement that makes me feel worse, I stop it.

    I am sorry you aren't feeling better yet :hug:
     
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  12. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to reply to all posts.

    allodynia was better and then worse than yesterday. mysterious.

    @Gondwanaland, thank you. i wouldn't have found her post again myself.

    @ahmo, sorry about the very delayed response. i haven't been thinking clearly enough to respond sooner.

    thank you for this distinction. this dull pain is in the flesh below the ball of my foot. it isn't present near my toes. i am not sure whether it is decreased padding. was your pain inside the ball of your foot or in the flesh below it? i am glad you had some idea of the cause. how did you deal with it? my lips do seem dry sometimes. i think i am dehydrated. i am not sure this foot pain correlates with dry lips though. i know added b12 seems to make this worse, but i depend on that to reduce pain.

    Ford
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    If I interpret your question correctly, the pain was inside the ball of my foot. I experienced it when getting out of bed first thing. Can no longer remember if it lasted through the day. How did I deal with it? I'd have to go back through my notes of the time. I've been using herb Chanca Piedra for several years, as needed. It helps w/ gall bladder, liver, kidney. This is what I used, though there are other brands. I would have asked my body, through self-testing, whether it wanted more or less salt, water.

    I don't know why this would be associated with B12. I know B12 can stimulate nerves coming on line again, which could maybe cause the symptom. My general practice over the last 2 years has been to use coffee enemas to detox liver, thus clearing the pathways for gall bladder and adrenals, and presumably kidneys. I eventually reached a point where my body is detoxxing itself without the need for CEs.

    If you want to pursue self-testing, below's a really simple method. It's been an invaluable ally in my healing. Hope you're feeling better, that your reply indicates your head's a bit clearer.:balloons:

    Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

    Good written description of simple self-testing: http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/herbalists/muscle_testing.htm
     
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  14. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    mental clarity is significantly lower today, partly due to some food.

    i will probably try reducing 1/16 of my (very high) oxalate intake soon.

    Ford
     
  15. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Ford,

    It's easy to become overwhelmed here with so many offerings on how to improve our troubled bodies. I, too had very high Oxalate levels on my OAT Test this spring, even after lowering my Oxalate intake significantly. I'd been eating a very high Oxalate diet--lots of nuts, Swiss Chard, sweet potatoes, dark chocolate, spinach-- and I was in a lot of pain. I'd gone to a new rheumotologist last November and all he had to offer was a diagnosis of arthritis, and prescriptions for pain killers and muscle relaxers. It took a new alternative doc to ask what my diet was like, and he was the first to mention oxalates to me...

    It's been about six months now that I've radically lowered these foods and my pain levels have improved. Follow some of the threads of @alicec for very intelligent advice on oxalates. Experts say not to decrease too much too fast, though I admit my intake dropped pretty significantly. I believe one of my greatest culprits was the nuts. And you talk about your cashew intake...perhaps that's a place to start.

    My brother is so sensitive to oxalates that he notices an increase in pain levels within hours and certainly by the next day when he consumes either nuts, or gluten, another pertinent issue in my family.

    Sometimes simple changes to our diet can make an enormous difference.

    It sound as if you're having some good evaluative tests done, so I'm assuming you can work with your doctor. I hope your own insights based on how you're feeling can contribute to your collaboration.

    Don't feel you need to reply to anything I have to say.

    Just take heart and take care.
     
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  16. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    i am probably going to slowly move from foods with unknown oxalate content to foods with known content. hopefully, they are not too different. i am also considering reducing oxalates a bit faster initially as a test so i can identify oxalate dumping symptoms. hopefully, i can stop that dumping with some high oxalate food. this might help identify which changes in symptoms are due to dumping and which are not. i don't know if this is a good idea.

    Ford
     
  17. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    At the time I thought I could identify oxalate dumping as rather sandy diarrhea--and it may well be. But some of my bowel problems are undoubtedly also from the paradoxical folate block. Unfortunately, it's not always easy to parse cause and effect. If you join the "Trying Low Oxalates" forum on Yahoo(which takes a few days as they want to ok you), there's an amazing file that's a Sorted Oxalate Spreadsheet. It has just about everything on it. I keep it on my desktop to refer to whenever I need to. Over time I've gotten familiar with the foods that I eat most often. Good luck with this.

    K
     
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  18. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    i was significantly less rested today, but finished some things faster. not sure why. i think i am still seeing the effects of stopping the rye bread.

    @Gondwanaland, sorry about the late reply. thank you for the summary. i never finished that b2 thread due to low mental clarity. my b1 status is an unknown since i haven't found a way to test it. berocca contains 15mg though.

    i am glad you are feeling better using your approach. i will come back to testing and possible anemia once i am moving adequately on the low oxalate diet.

    my b5 was high and b7 was low on the oat test from last year. i should probably test supplement changes to handle dumping better, when it does happen. i think your expectation that the regime will stop working is a useful one. that way, it is slightly less frustrating when things don't work. i'll try to adopt this.

    i am also deficient in many things, but haven't found the right parts to address yet.

    Ford
     
  19. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    more beard trimming. mental clarity lower. expecting PEM to show up tomorrow.

    @Kathevans, you stopped the b-complex causing the methyl trapping! sweet! congratulations on not going backwards daily. :) i hope it is sustainable.

    i say. that l-tiptop ham sounds quite spiffy. i love autocorrect. :)

    i am glad you are sleeping a bit better.

    Ford
     
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  20. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly enough to respond. having pem.

    i might be seeing some dumping symptoms from previously stopping the rye bread. for the previous 2 nights, mental clarity and headache have improved a bit after eating cashews. not sure about today though. previously, cashews made the mental clarity worse.

    Ford
     

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