Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of unsuccessfully addressing methyl trapping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fprefect, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i think my biggest issue right now is the low mental clarity. i haven't been able to test anything other than the vit d recently, and that was a week ago.

    i am thinking of retesting 30mg or less of sodium to help with the orthostatic intolerance and think a bit more clearly. last time i did that, mental clarity improved a bit till the next potassium dose, but i got loose stools for 2 or more days. i don't know if that was due to sodium itself or that my (mild as of 1 year ago) candida infection didn't like the salt.

    i'd appreciate a shout out if this seems like a bad idea.

    Ford
     
  2. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

    Messages:
    569
    Likes:
    454
    Boston, Massachusetts
    I really don't know much about orthostatic intolerance, but your comments on salt interest me. Before discovering this forum, I spent a lot of time on Bee Wilder's site called Healing Naturally. She healed herself using diet, basic vitamin supplements, and self care modalities like skin brushing and coffee enemas, and the basic food stuffs she added to her diet were Coconut oil (which frankly I love, but never could get above 2 tablespoons a day before my heart began to pound nightly), a tablespoon of lemon juice in water with meals to aid digestion, and a lot of SEA SALT, again to aid digestion--it apparently increases stomach acid that many of us lack--and to support adrenals.

    So some of these things I've brought along with me for the ride. I do believe that sea salt is a better product than basic table salt. It has many, many natural minerals in it that are helpful to the body. Its only drawback is that it doesn't have iodine in it and over two years of using it, I developed an iodine deficiency (Oh, the places we go with our healing efforts!). The physical stiffness that I experienced as a symptom of iodine deficiency was corrected by a very low dose--225 mcg, I think the RDA, only 3 drops--per day.

    So Celtic Grey Sea salt has been in my pantry for years and I use it liberally. In fact, while I don't drink an electrolyte drink per se, I do drink a lot of water and add 1/8 of a teaspoon of sea salt to each liter so that I maintain my sodium levels (which have been problematic in the past).

    This said, I know that potassium and salt are rivals, and keep my potassium supplementation,when I do take it, separate.

    This is my salt story.
     
    fprefect likes this.
  3. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still unable to respond properly due to not thinking clearly.

    hi @Kathevans.

    thank you. :hug: i can empathise with your difficulty in finding the right balance. suicidal thoughts are a hassle, even if you don't feel you are going to act on them.

    it is a good thing you figured out it is due to methyl trapping and stopped the downward spiral. that seems difficult to pinpoint since most methyl trapping on PR seems related to megadoses and onset is usually faster.

    it was very sensible reducing the variables.

    i don't know the details of sciatica, but you might want to confirm the pain isn't from low b12. if it is, and you haven't found a way yet to sustainably increase your b12 intake, that might be cause to rethink your approach. congrats on the improved sleep.

    for me, the panic seems easier to eventually reverse than central nervous system issues and b12 deficiency. so, i am allowing it for now.

    if vit d improved your sleep, you might benefit from other items that affect your body clock. ie. melatonin, blue light, dawn and dusk simulation, dark therapy.

    i agree. my current situation is one rollercoaster i didn't mean to ride.

    cheers. i hope you sort things out also. i would be interested to hear how you reduce your methylfolate production. incidentally, keeping magnesium, b2 and b6 low help me with this, while causing other issues.

    Ford
     
    Kathevans likes this.
  4. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

    Messages:
    569
    Likes:
    454
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Methylfolate production? I was getting from 200-800mcg in the multi B-complex I was taking(was actually taking the full 800/day for years before I realized it was exactly what was causing so much pain)--and have stopped as of three days ago. After increasing the amount first to try for more sleep, which worked for 3 days before going in the other direction... Like you (I think it was you earlier in this post!), it then took 3 more days for the folate to lower enough in my system that I could sleep again. But still not well.

    I'm still increasing the D, but only by 100 mcg or whatever the amount is, per day. I'm hoping that helps somewhat. And today I took one of Dr. Ben Lynch's B-Minus, a B-complex that has no methyl donors in it. We'll see how that works.

    Unfortunately, I've added an extra and often very disrupting variable today by doing some cleaning around the house (despite my exhaustion, I felt I was living in a pig-sty...) So, on one hand if I clean a little, it can give me a deeper, sometimes longer sleep; whereas if I push too hard, I can end up being up half the night. We'll see!

    I think I must sound much less in control of all that is happening to me at this point, which is exactly how I feel. I know that what I need is more of the B-12 for the pain, but also like you, have had a hard time tolerating it. I ran a test a few weeks ago of 1/4 sublingual for 5 days and slept less and less. I think my next move is to go to either 1/8, or even 1/16 and see if I have any reaction. I won't push for so many days this time. I'm too exhausted for that kind of experimentation.:depressed:
     
    fprefect likes this.
  5. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still unable to respond properly.
    @Kathevans

    it is good you figured out your high potassium. that is dangerous. improved sleep is pretty sweet.

    i did wonder if my palpitations are due to high potassium. however, when i add b12, i get cramps which subside a bit with added potassium. i think i still have low potassium. also, the palpitations subside after i calm myself down. i think the palpitations are due to the panic, although sometimes they may have been due to methyl trapping.

    i tried adding cashews when i first suspected low potassium. i don't think i absorb potassium from food well right now. the low potassium symptoms improved with 100mg potassium supplementation where 600mg of potassium from cashews didn't help.

    thanks for the reminder re sensitivity. i doubt that will work for my magnesium intake, but i am going to try increasing my salt very slowly.

    Ford
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
    Kathevans likes this.
  6. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly and can't respond properly.
    @Gondwanaland, thank you for this. i have wanted to get more regular testing done, but haven't had the energy.

    i wouldn't know what to do with these results given my low mental clarity:
    Red Blood Cell panel
    White Blood Cell panel
    Iron panel
    Thyroid panel (including Free T4, Free T3, Reverse T3, Anti-TPO and Anti-TG antibodies)
    Protein C Reactive
    Erythrocyte sedimentation rate
    Lipid panel
    do you have any good links i can read? i would google, but am not sure i can currently make sense of the search results.

    always nice being able to stop medication. :) i have been concerned about 5htp and dopamine also.

    i can empathise with having dr's advice cause new issues. anemia causes fms!? i wonder if my allodynia is related to this. zinc improves it. b12 used to improve it, but now makes it worse. i might be anemic. hair metals test from 1 year ago showed low copper and iron. not sure if folic acid is masking anemia from low b12. perhaps i should target copper and iron so i have more of a functioning brain to tackle everything else.

    nicely done stopping his ibs-d.

    how on earth did high serum B12, folate, iron and ferritin suggest copper, B6, B1 and B2 to you? :) sounds like magic to me right now.

    Ford
     
  7. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am thinking less clearly. i ran out of rye bread yesterday, which i mistakenly thought was gluten and wheat free. the replacement is gluten free and improved my mental clarity, but then made my sleep and mental clarity worse today. so, the low mental clarity was partly due to either gluten/wheat intolerance or due to the fructan in rye bread feeding my klebsiella infection, amongst other things. mental clarity might be worse today due to fructan not feeding lacto, bifido and some other beneficial bacteria. it boggles my mind that bacteria cells outnumber us 10 to 1 and we still don't know enough about our interaction with them.

    the cns symptoms are still present. so methyl trapping still seems like one of the ongoing issues.

    Ford
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,709
    Likes:
    3,682
    A RBC panel will essentially tell you about anemia. Anemia causes brain fog and body aches.

    WBC panel tells you about active infections and antioxidant status.

    Iron panel tells you about anemia, it can confirm or lead to other clues

    Thyroid is all about mental clarity and cognition

    PCR and lipid panel can tell you if your food is hurting you (going gluten free and lowering carb intake improved my results - note: I do not eat a low carb diet, but learned to balance carbs, fat and proteins)

    ESR can confirm infections (unespecific)
     
    fprefect likes this.
  9. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    mental clarity was a bit better. woot! no good idea why, though.

    i tested 15mg salt to improve mental clarity. this made it worse, and the opposite of what happened a month ago, cos that's how i roll, apparently. :rolleyes: i should probably increase my potassium intake before mucking with sodium again. i'd appreciate tips on balancing sodium and potassium.

    also, the padding in my feet seems to be decreasing. i am getting increasing pain while standing and even when placing weight on my feet while sitting. i think it is related to added b12 intake. i tried googling the web and PR, but didn't find anything useful. i know someone on PR had the same issue, but i can't find his post again. any ideas?

    Ford
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,709
    Likes:
    3,682
    I think @ahmo had that once
     
    fprefect likes this.
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,374
    Likes:
    6,622
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I didn't experience decreased padding. I was having pain in the ball of my foot, which pointed to stressed kidneys. Could it be that you're dehydrated?
     
    fprefect likes this.
  12. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond properly.

    i am trying to increase potassium slowly before i retry adding salt.

    @caledonia, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response. sorry about the delayed and long reply.
    this sounds intriguing. i will try to remember this once the mercury is better dealt with.

    my potassium does seem low after increasing the methyl b12 from 47mcg to 50mcg. i take about 2.5g split across 10 doses since i get loose stools if i take more than 400mg or so at once. i didn't realise magnesium would cause potassium deficiency. i thought added magnesium helped potassium absorption. i may be muddled.

    that must have been difficult figuring out those symptoms were high potassium. i have had twitching feet once or twice, but only after waking, as far as i know. and like the tremor in the hands, it seems to improve with b12. i suspect that is the methyl trap at work.

    thank you for taking a look. do you mean recycling b12 would be my biggest issue or adding it or both?

    thank you for this. if you don't recall, this was in reference to saying i take 600mg ala daily, but that energy dropped like a stone when i reduced it.

    i get lost when i read cutler. dude is helpful, but more longwinded than me right now!

    i want to reduce ala. i suppose i will need to find band aids to make that workable. one weird thing is that i had been pressing my right thumb into my index finger (for a stupid reason) prior to testing the ala reduction. there was a depression in my finger as a result. when i reduced ala, this swelled into something like a blister. think there was some pain inside my finger(s). don't recall for sure. adding the ala made the blister go down again. i don't even know how to google for what that might be and whether i should be concerned.

    i had thought i might stick with the 600mg, but also take frequent 1mg doses to chelate gently. this sounds harebrained, but i don't know how to get off the ala.

    wow. that sounds like a big ordeal. i am sorry you went through that.

    this sounds plausible, although i am not sure cutler agrees. he doesn't seem to like methylation.


    if i recall correctly, cutler suggests some other chelator as a first step. ala is the final one, i think. but you probably know all that. i hope it goes much better for you this time.

    thank you for the link and your thoughts. other than not knowing how to get off ala sustainably yet, chelation sounds pretty rough even on healthier people. i am not sure i can handle it right now. however, i don't know if i have a choice. i am thinking of addressing the low mental clarity first since i can't do squat without it (via adding salt, addressing possible anemia, possible thyroid issues, possible adrenal issue and known high oxalates). perhaps i might then be able to navigate and tolerate chelation, although the methyl trap would probably be worse by then. does this make sense? might mercury interfere with this approach?


    this is very interesting. it sounds like mercury could be causing/increasing the methyl trap if it had more effect on mtr/mtrr than mthfr in my situation.

    Ford
     
  13. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    after adding 400mg potassium yesterday, shaking in hands, allodynia, sleep, pain in base of skull and tinnitus are a bit to somewhat worse. quite mysterious. however, mental clarity is (sporadically) a bit better, as well as some other things. i think potassium is/was low. i don't know if i can tolerate it though.
    @Gondwanaland, thank you. this is helpful. sorry about the late reply.

    your approach of regular testing makes sense. i am trying to get the energy and mental clarity to do this.

    i don't think i have tested phosphorous before. perhaps it is high since my brief test of 500iu vit d moved my mood closer to normal.

    i didn't know that ala chelates zinc and copper. i wonder how much of my deranged mineral transport is due to ala rather than mercury toxicity. hair minerals test from 1 year ago said zinc was in range and i mostly haven't changed supplementation of that. copper was on the low edge of normal. i want to redo the hair test and perhaps test copper supplementation if it is low.

    it is interesting how people on PR casually mention crappy experiences so matter-of-factly. i guess we gotta do what we gotta do. i can empathise with the dark mood. perhaps my thyroid function is low also. for me, the shortness of breath appeared when i tried reducing b2, but the dark mood appeared when i added b2. how did you resolve the shortness of breath?

    thanks. :hug: if not for your and others' responses, i would still only be thinking about reducing berocca and methyl trapping without addressing the bigger context that might help.

    Ford
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,709
    Likes:
    3,682
    I was re-reading the thread No Love for B2 today and found interesting info there. It is pretty intricate, but roughly you need B1 with B2 because B2 lowers serotonin.

    But in my current approach with having anemia, I can say that my supplementation is working great for me because I am covering (almost) all bases to increase red blood cells by taking B1, B2, B6, and copper with zinc. I am assuming my high serum iron is becoming bioavailable, because my brainfog and body pain are gone. Folate and B12 are also needed, but I am getting them through food since they are high in serum.

    I am also taking B5 and B7 because at the same time I am addressing dietary oxalates, and every now and then I take some B12. I know at some point this regime will stop working, and then perhaps I will retry methylation.

    It just seems that I am deficient in so many things, but I feel better addressing it in parts.
     
    Kathevans and fprefect like this.
  15. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

    Messages:
    569
    Likes:
    454
    Boston, Massachusetts
    @Gondwanaland I didn't know that B2 lowers serotonin. Interestingly, the only B that I seem low in on my recent basic labs was B1, Niacin! My doc is now having supplement with 100 mg/day and I've been taking it at night because it does make me sleepy (not to be confused with putting me to sleep).

    A little l-tryptophan helped me two nights ago to achieve a lovely (for me!) night's sleep, but last night I doubled my evening magnesium to 300 mg, which I think was a mistake. I actually felt anxious through the early hours of the night. I've been trying to trouble-shoot nightly headaches that are pretty much gone in the morning, and this may be the problem, or a contributing factor. Was it @ahmo who has said that magnesium competes with potassium? I've been taking extra niacin for the slight PVCs that I experience, but it would be better to eliminate the symptoms...

    Btw, I have stopped the infamous B-Complex that was causing the methyl trapping, and have been taking the very, very low dose Nature Made, which has no folate or B12. I'm trying to get these through diet for the moment, as well. I am thinking of doubling the tiny dose of Bs or to begin by simply adding some B6 which Sherpa has pointed to as great for sleep/dreams...not to mention important for those high oxalates many of us are working with.

    Doing more than one thing at once has only gotten me tangled in symptoms, so I'm trying to take it slow. The Bs very slowly...and a bit of L-tiptop ham for that all important sleep--and with thanks (and let's face it, a bit of envy!) to @aturtles I think we all know how important methylation is. If only we could all dive right into that pool!

    But since I seem to have issues with taking potassium just now--makes my kidneys sore--then perhaps I'll stick with addressing some of the gut issues, along with the lower Bs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
    fprefect likes this.
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,709
    Likes:
    3,682
    B1= thiamine
    B3= niacin
    Trypthophan converts to serotonin and GABA (with the help of B6, I think)
    Magnesium will increase you need for potassium and calcium
    Niacin increases the need for potassium (generally B1, B2, B3 and B9 will need more potassium)
    In addition B1 and B7 are also needed to deal with oxalates
    I have that same problem. We definetly have kidney issues, Kath :( :hug:
     
    fprefect and Kathevans like this.
  17. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    117
    Seattle, WA
    @Kathevans , TMG (Trimethylglycine) helped me a lot with anxiety while doing methylation work.
     
    Wayne, fprefect and Kathevans like this.
  18. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

    Messages:
    569
    Likes:
    454
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Thanks all. And apropos of the niacin...Woops! I'll get there. I just upped only my B6 by 25 mg with lunch as the Nature Made has only a very low 5mg in it and I just took the longest nap In recent history...over an hour and 15 minutes. Oh yay.

    So, yes,@Gondwanaland, it does convert tryptophan to serotonin. I was doing some B6 research this morning and it said just that...how important B6 is to those neurotransmitters. and those oxalates, too...

    I must get some TMG to add to my arsenal...
     
  19. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

    Messages:
    117
    Likes:
    61
    i am still not thinking clearly enough to respond to all posts.

    i am trying to figure out if i am handling the added potassium ok. it is confusing since the methyl trap seems to be getting a bit worse while adding potassium.

    @caledonia, i try, although the low mental clarity, panic and depression are a bit much sometimes. if i meet an untimely demise despite my best efforts, i aim for my attitude to be like Oscar Wilde's. broke, abandoned by nearly all of his friends, on his deathbed in a cheap hotel in France where he hated the wallpaper in his room, he said, "This wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. Either it goes or I do." :)

    @Kathevans, thanks for the reminder re potassium. that is a real bummer when new symptoms show up after a delay. i am glad you sorted at least part of it out.

    @Gondwanaland, thank you again. i am not sure whether to test anti-histamines or not. h2 blockers deplete folate, but also stomach acid, which is probably already lower due to my reduced b6 and cfs in general. i didn't find any mention of h1 blockers depleting folate. hopefully, better mental clarity will suggest a way forward.

    Ford
     
  20. aturtles

    aturtles Senior Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes:
    117
    Seattle, WA
    I doubt potassium is the culprit, Ford. Our bodies need a lot of it and go through it fast.

    You're more likely to be in potassium deficit than in excess. An accomplished nephrologist of my acquaintance assured me that if your kidneys are healthy it is nearly impossible to overdose on potassium. I told him I was taking 5 grams a day or more. He shrugged, said he wasn't worried.

    Now, if your kidneys aren't healthy, then you might want to consult a doctor. But you would anyway.

    Otherwise, it's really unlikely to be a potassium problem. I'd suspect that last.
     
    fprefect likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page