Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of unsuccessfully addressing methyl trapping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fprefect, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    @Gondwanaland congratulations on lifting his depression. nice when something works.

    too bad vitamin d requires magnesium. taking magnesium makes the suspected methyl trap worse (ie. added confusion *and* mental clarity). i can't lower magnesium either as i get a severe headache. hair metals test from a year ago said i am deficient.

    vit d seems worth testing at another 1000iu initially. i take 3000iu now, which took getting used to as it initially caused itching. vit d test from 2 years ago said i was slightly deficient despite that supplementation.

    i am unfamiliar with gamma e. if it is vit e, i don't take any. i dont understand this:
    what did you mean?

    perhaps testing your vit d before and after folate might shine some light. you can call me Captain Obvious. :p

    thanks for the link. i love and hate it. so useful and so frustrating! :)
     
  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, we are very sensitive, so always proceed cautiously. Start Low and Go Slow. Less might be more. Try one thing at a time so you know what is doing what. Take notes in a symptom journal.
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I know what you mean :ill:
    3000iu should be enough, if it is not working, don't take more of it. Personally I got depression from this amount. How is your thyroid? Red blood cell count?
    I don't think you need that right now.
     
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  4. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    @barbc56, @Sushi, @SOC. thank you for the support. i really appreciate it. :hug:

    i am getting low on mental clarity. i will respond tomorrow.
     
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  5. SDSue

    SDSue Southeast

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    Not crying wolf! As others said, many of us get these feelings. I gave up on methylation after several attempts - it gave me serious suicidal ideology. I was an emotional wreck and I found it really scary.

    Glad to hear you are doing better today.
     
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  6. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    sorry about the lack of response. my good friend insisted on dropping by and stayed for hours, partly because i was panicky. i was lucky to have him here, although it stopped me from moving on how to actually improve.

    meanwhile, the orthostatic intolerance was worse today, together with a cramp and some added panic. i reverted to lower b12 to reduce the panic and the above symptoms, but expect added pain and possibly tremor in my limbs. not sure what to do next while testing changes to improve my mood.

    my notes from 2011 imply i got some energy from the 3000iu vit d i started. nothing about mood, though. i will probably test an added 1000iu vit d tomorrow to see if it helps my mood.

    i am too low on mental clarity to respond more right now.

    Ford
     
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  7. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    @fprefect,

    You seem like the kind of frood who know where his towel is. Listen to these clever folks and take good care of yourself.

    Like others here, I need very high Vitamin D to feel cheerful, focused and energetic. I'm on about 4,000IU and my levels are in the 80s at last check.

    I take a bit of Vitamin A with that, too.

    At least from my perspective - and do take it with a grain of salt - B-Vitamins seem to be what I need if I feel sorrowful for no reason. Early on in my illness, before I had the first clue what was going on, my mood was all over the place. Taking B12 fixed it like magic, as @WoolPippi describes regarding her taking Vitamin D. It is creepy-weird-fast... like flipping a switch.

    This doesn't happen to me anymore because I am on a daily dose of pretty high B-Vitamins and antioxidants, which I take twice a day to ensure that levels remain consistent. If I miss a dose now, I feel less energetic, but not sorrowful.

    It's not as instantaneous for me with Vitamin D, though. I have to be off for at least a week before I notice I feel less cheerful and focused.

    Part of the reason acute onset was so scary for me - my emotions were all over the place. Once I applied the right supplements, I was okay, and it was all temporary - but it was so frightening while it was happening. Hang in there, okay?

    -J
     
  8. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am not thinking clearly. so i can't respond properly.

    i added 500iu vit d. the depression and panic improved. it was quite nice not feeling like i was stuck in someone else's head. however, tinnitus seems a bit worse. i am not sure if the slight added chest pain is due to the vit d. and i am not sure if i am more sluggish/confused due to the vit d. i have to wait till tomorrow for the full effects.

    thank goodness you guys suggested vit d. i would not have thought of that. even if i can't add vit d, maybe i can space out my existing vit d so the better/worse mood is evenly spread out.

    Ford
     
  9. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    500 IU is still quite a bit low if you're feeling that blue, Ford. Starting low is good, but see if you can add more, bit at a time and are still okay with it.

    When my levels were clinically low, I was taking 10x that much per day. And now I'm still taking 8x that much...

    -J
     
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  10. Bob

    Bob

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    I notice that a number of people are advising fprefect to take various supplements, and many of these supplements are stimulating. If fprefect is experiencing prolonged overstimulation, agitation and panic, then I wonder if it is wise to suggest/advise adding further heavy doses of stimulating supplements? Could the stimulating supplements be contributing to the prolonged panic? I might be an unusual case, but I'm sure I'm not unique, and from my own experience, small doses of b12, vit d, and folic acid all cause me uncomfortable agitation and overstimulation. I'd probably be a wreck if I took large doses of all three, simultaneously. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to assume that our own positive experiences with supplements will automatically be experienced by someone else who may have different biological needs.
     
  11. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Absolutely, Bob. I do agree. Low and slow is always called for, and one thing at a time, which I think that people have also said. :)

    -J
     
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  12. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am low on energy and can't respond very well.

    therapy appointment turned out a lot less helpful than i expected. therapist, who i previously got along well with, got angry with me due to a miscommunication, in turn due to my low mental clarity and panic. now he doesnt want to see me again. oy. haha .. when the dude you are paying to listen to you won't listen to you due to your symptoms, it is no wonder social isolation is common in cfs.

    i reverted back to 3000iu vit d since i wasn't able to figure out in time (for today) whether the symptoms from the added 500iu were acceptable.

    i am grateful we have one another in this community. seems like many people outside PR are telling me how my situation is too complicated to figure out. i bet we have all heard that at least once.

    Ford
     
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  13. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    @barbc56. i checked out the crisis center. thank you for the link.


    @Sushi. thank you for the clarification re whether it was ok to post all this. i was concerned.


    @SOC. yes. taking permanent action on a temporary feeling would be tragic. my heart always goes out to those families with teenagers who committed suicide after sudden onset of depression they didn't have mental/medical tools to deal with.


    @WoolPippi.
    15mg of vit d? tell me you meant 15mcg! :)

    i can empathise with your annoyance. i was exasperated when the depression and panic improved within 10 mins after testing 500iu extra of vit d. still not sure if that dose is sustainable though.

    good that you have no issues with the biological clock.

    hmm. my hair metals test showed really low lithium. however, Yasko says lithium is involved in b12 absorption. since i dont seem to tolerate added b12 now, perhaps i should hold off on lithium till i can reduce the berocca. i am concerned i might make the suspected methyl trap worse.

    i hadn't heard of progesteron. i haven't tested my adrenal gland yet though. good to know.

    *years* of jittering?! that sounds horrid for you.

    thank you for the options. that lifted my mood. the suicidal thoughts and panicky thoughts are a hassle when they show up. it would be nice if they would run away with each other into the sunset.
     
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  14. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    We have a special section for emotional support also. This section is, for the sake of privacy, only visible to those who have more than 100 posts, and you are not quite there yet, but I wanted to let you know about it. It is also in a Members Only section which means it is not indexed by search engines.

    In this thread you are also discussing emotions as related to nutrient levels, which is fine too.

    I am so glad that you are continuing to dialogue with other members when you have the energy.
     
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  15. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @fprefect

    What a awful experience. This person sounds very unprofessional. You might not have the energy right now, but it sounds like he/she needs to be reported. Maybe your sister could help?

    If the therapist feels it's not a right fit, he/she needs to refer you to someone else and not be so dismissive.

    Don't give up on the therapy. It sometimes takes several therapist before finding the right match.

    I had a similar experience and I eventually found someone who has really helped.

    I am so sorry you have gone through this. It's especially hard dealing with something like this when not feeling the best. There is absolutely no excuse for being treated like this!

    Barb
     
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  16. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    Uhm... yes :D you read very precisely.
    I'll edit it.

    I take 4000 iu per day. One pill of 75 mcg in the morning and 25 or 15 mcg at 14 o'clock.

    Btw, I take mB12 and methylfolate maybe once a fortnight, in a very low dose. It stimulates very much and takes 3 days to get calm again. At a very low dose, maybe 200 mcg.
    Once the reaction lessens I'll increase the frequency. Maybe next year. I'm in for the long game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
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  17. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    i am still too low on mental clarity to respond properly.

    i smoothed over the miscommunication with the therapist. since he is one of the most compassionate and ego-free people i know, i figured the panic was resulting in unproductive behaviour on my part. he sent ideas to help address the panic. it seems to be helping a bit, but time will tell.

    i think the added vit d made my legs weaker at times. i think it has improved a bit since reverting to the lower amount. very mysterious. i am not sure yet, but i think i can't tolerate the added vit d.

    pain from low b12 is on the rise.
     
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  18. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    it was worth testing, but i don't think the added vit d is workable unless someone has some idea why i saw these effects. it resulted in the following:
    • energy worse. legs felt sort of weak.
    • shaking in hands worse.
    • sleep somewhat worse.
    • mental clarity bit better, but also more sluggish. wondering if methyl trap symptom.
    • improved panic and depression, but unhappier due to added symptoms.
    • tinnitus bit worse.
    • allodynia somewhat worse. think caused new mechanical allodynia on top of usual tactile allodynia.
    • increased transient headache in back of head near base of skull
    • tingling somewhat worse.
    • breathing bit better.
    • sound sensitivity bit worse. perhaps closer to pre berocca reduction state.
    • chest pain wee bit worse.
    • stools somewhat to significantly better. but also seems more associated with suspected methyl trap.

    these things have mostly reverted since going back to 3000iu vit d.

    paradoxically, seems like it reduced methylation and energy production. suspect my folic acid mostly sits unmetabolised, possibly due to poor methylation status. when something increases energy / methylation, it metabolises more folic acid and makes the suspected methyl trap worse. this idea seems questionable.

    does this ring a bell?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  19. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    hi @Bob.

    i can empathise with your panic. it sounds very icky. i have noticed b12 seems to increase my panic and b6 reduces this. a study found low b6 is associated with panic. perhaps you could retry, but with included b6. slowly, of course.

    i am trying to reduce the folic acid as i think it is causing issues. unfortunately, i seem dependent on the other items in the b vitamin drink (berocca). i feel like i have built a house of cards, climbed on top of it, and am now trying to tear down part of the house. nothing for it but to patiently figure it out and try not to panic, i guess.

    thank you for your support. i will keep posting when i am able.
     
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  20. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    Bob likes this.

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