Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of unsuccessfully addressing methyl trapping

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by fprefect, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    hi everyone.

    i am panicky and having suicidal thoughts after 2 months of trying to address methyl trapping. previously, i was never panicky and i managed mild depression ok. i think i am seeing increasing central nervous system damage. i would like your thoughts. (i think i can fend off the suicidal thoughts. my point is the depression has got significantly worse. i hope i am not breaking any rules by posting this.)

    i am on 375mcg folic acid (boo!), 47mcg methyl b12, and 45mcg adb12. i want to move to 25mcg methylfolate or higher.


    complications:

    1. the folic acid is part of a b vitamin drink (berocca performance) i seem dependent on.

    2. 2 months ago, i started reducing 1/16 of this drink at a time. i replaced as many ingredients as possible. this caused many added symptoms, including panic, depression, pain from low b12, and increasing tremor in my limbs.

    3. i am at 14/16 berocca with 5/11 of the ingredients (poorly) replaced. this is making the tremors and pain worse, presumably due to taking more b2 than on full berocca. without that, i have palpitations, chest pain and difficulty breathing.

    4. i cant seem to increase to 15/16 berocca without seeing added symptoms. so i don't have a stable state to return to.

    5. i am absurdly sensitive. 5mcg methyl b12 makes quite a difference (good and bad). same for 0.3mg of the wrong type of zinc.

    6. my methylation function is very poor. 8 months ago, i replaced previously effective 90mcg hydroxo b12 with 47mcg methyl and 45mcg adenosyl b12 to avoid pain.

    7. seems like anything that produces energy or increases methylation makes the methyl trap worse. ie. achy muscles, sluggishness, confusion. these are symptoms from Fred's folate deficiency / methyl trap list.


    do you know some way out of this mess? or do you have different explanations for what might be happening? or maybe ideas about a different approach i can take? do you know how other people dealt with a similar situation?

    Ford

    berocca label:
    http://www.berocca.com.au/faqs/berocca-performance/
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2015
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi Ford. Hang in there! What's in the Berocca? Have you looked at @caledonia snp guide? in her signature. You don't have MTHFR, so your folate/B12 needs might be different from those of us int that camp. I don't know anything about your AHCY ++ snps, I wonder what role they're playing?

    You say you're seeing increased CNS damage...is it actual damage, or is is symptoms, that is can be relieved? @Gondwanaland has had to cope with sensitivities to tiny amounts of things, like you, and has researched a lot, maybe she can offer some help. Good luck with getting on top of this.:hug:
     
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  3. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    Weirdly enough I get particularly desperate of life when my vit D is not good.
    Perhaps your protocol depletes your vit D and you have this too? We share a +/+ for VDR Taq, I need to supplement seriously for mine.

    I take some vit D3 and within 40 minutes those thoughts go away. 40 minutes is what my stomach usually needs to process something.

    (I have the same absurd sensitivities for mB12 and Zn you mention. What a drag.)
     
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  4. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    hi Ahmo. thank you. :)

    i added a link to the berocca faq to my earlier post. please see the second question at that link for the ingredients. i can't embed it otherwise. sorry.

    i have seen her wonderful guide. most of my snps suggest slower methylation cycle speed. i seem to have compounded this by taking 400mcg folic acid with too little b12 for 6-8 years. *no one* knows about ahcy snps! :p i think they also reduce methylation cycle efficiency.

    i don't know if it is actual damage. i have symptoms, but no test results, if that is what you mean. i think Freddd said methyl trapping eventually leads to combined subacute degeneration, which seems to make sense with high folate to very low b12. my symptoms include:
    • weak urination (tmi, i know!)
    • pain from low b12 (tested by increasing b12)
    • increasing tremor in limbs (improves for awhile on added b12, then gets worse overnight. i suspect folic acid requires methylation to be metabolised.)
    • poor balance at times
    i don't know any way to relieve these than address the possible methyl trap.

    good to know. i hope she can help also.

    thank you. :hug:

    ps. i've read some of your posts (self muscle testing, coffee enemas). your perseverance in improving your health has an inspiration to me.
     
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @fprefect I think @WoolPippi is right on spot. My husband tried several B vitamins and minerals for neuropathy, all of which only helped for a few days and then would trigger depression. Folic acid increased his neuropathy, and methylfolate made his depression worse.

    After getting worse continuously, only 3 days ago I started him on vitamin D and ta-da! Depression is dissipating. :thumbsup:

    It is very hard for me to find out what works for him, since we are so different. So I thought: "What would NOT work for me ?" answer: "vitamin D". And there you have it, it is working for him!

    So I am aware that vit D requires a whole set of co-factors on its own, and am watching him for the 1st singn of needing those (magnesium, calcium, vitamin A, vitamin K, Gamma E).

    Interestingly a few days ago I tried to restart to Gamma E for both of us but it made us very depressed, so perhaps I might be tolerating vit D supplementation at this point and will have to find it out.

    So this is something I haven't researched yet, but does folate intake increases vitmain D needs? Perhaps taking vit D will enable me to tolerate folate supplementation...

    It is all interconnected, taking one thing will increase the need for other things and we need to be constantly reading all the threads here at PR and other external sources. One of the best sources I found so far is in the link "Balancing nutrients" below in my signature.
     
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  6. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    hi WoolPippi.

    interesting idea. i should probably test more vit d. i have tested low despite supplementation. i am starved for sunlight due to poor sleeping hours. and i always feel my mood recharging in the sun.

    by the way, the timing of vit d can mess with your sleep. so you might want to take it closer to noon (relative to when you wake) so your body clock doesn't get messed up.

    my added depression is related to the higher b2, which i can't reduce without adding b6. naturally, i can't add b6 without making the low b12 pain and tremors worse. :p

    wow. crappy that you have those sensitivities also.
     
  7. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    Gondwanaland,

    i have run out of mental clarity. i will respond tomorrow.
     
  8. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @fprefect

    There is a crisis center on PR. Suicidal thoughts, can become out of one's control without realizing it. It's better to be safe than sorry!

    http://phoenixrising.me/resources/crisis-center

    Please have someone around you and get this checked out. Contact someone here if you need to.

    Take care.

    Barb
     
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  9. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi fprefect,

    Please don't worry about breaking any forum rules by posting about this--you are not--and we will do our best to support you however we can.

    I'd say, before you find the leisure to try to figure out why you are having suicidal thoughts it is very important that you ensure your own safety by staying close to friends and family and letting them know how you feel. If your country has "hotlines" to call for help and someone to talk to if these thoughts become overwhelming, please make that call. In most countries numbers to call for help when you are in acute mental distress are listed in the telephone book.

    If this isn't available in your country, please engage with us here. You can sign into chat in the lower right hand corner of your screen by clicking on the icon there. Then you could choose someone you have connected with from the chat list (Chat (xx) and click on their name to chat or you could post in the general chat room by clicking on the icon of a person next to chat.

    Otherwise, please continue to post here and share your thoughts and feelings.

    I hope you are getting some good rest and will feel more refreshed and able to talk to us more later.

    Very best wishes,
    Sushi
     
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  10. SOC

    SOC

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    Do not hesitate to post about these kinds of feelings. Many of us have felt that way and can help you through it. It's important that you talk about these feelings. Please make sure you aware of the suicide hotlines available to you and have the phone numbers handy.

    Sometimes our neurochemistry can get temporarily out of whack and can cause suicidal feelings. They aren't permanent, or even long-term emotional upsets, but can feel dreadful. It is critical that we don't take permanent action on a temporary feeling. :hug:

    Hang in there and stay in touch. We're willing to help where we can.
     
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  11. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    There's no harm in taking some vit D to test out this theory now and not wait for test results to come back. If your mood lifts you have a viable suspect. If it doesn't you've gained knowledge. 15 mcg will do the trick.

    I've been astounded and very annoyed by feeling suicidal thoughts evaporate within an hour of taking 15 mg of vit D. Annoyed that they were "just a chemical thing." The effect wears off in three or four hours and desperate thoughts re-emerge.

    A new vit D pill relieves them again for three hours. This tells me my base level of vit D is still too low. I've found I function better at blood levels reserved for MS patients (100-120) instead of those for regular folk (60-80).

    I have no problem with the biological clock, I sleep as soon as I hit the pillow, even when I take my last dose of vit D at 6 o'clock in the evening. My insomnia at night comes from starch and fruit during the day and other bodily stresses.

    Two other supplements I need to remain calm are Lithium (the mineral, not the drug. I take one pill of Biotics Li-enzyme at night) and Progesteron (the adrenal building block, not the sex hormone). That last one has to do with my adrenal problems and related overexited nervous system/HPA-axis (hence the nightly insomnia).
    But the first one, Lithium, is an important mineral in cell chemistry. It calmed me right the f. down after years of nervous mental jittering. Depletion happens.

    Hope this gives some new avenues to explore. The suicidal thoughts are so menacing and tiresome to manage... Let's just be too stubborn.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
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  12. Bob

    Bob

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    Hi fprefect, very sorry to hear about your situation. I can't give you any specific advice but please be aware that any supplements have the potential to cause side effects and complications. We're all different, but in my own experience B12 & folic acid caused me a surge of mental and physical stimulation, to the point of being very agitated and panicky. It was very unpleasant. So please keep this in mind, and consider whether it might be worth having a break from some or all of your supplements. Also be aware that some supplements may need tapering off to avoid sudden withdrawal issues. (But i might have misunderstood your situation, in which case please ignore me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.) Many best wishes to you. I hope you see an improvement very soon. As others have said, please keep posting here if it's helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  13. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    thank you, everyone. i will try to respond properly later.

    i am somewhat more sluggish / confused today. however, your ideas about suicide prevention sound sensible, even if i feel like i have a temporary lid on it. my mood currently changes hourly / daily.

    i am keeping the local suicide prevention number handy. i will inform my sister. i feel like i am crying wolf though.

    Ford
     
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  14. Bob

    Bob

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    Hi fprefect. Please don't worry about that. It's better to be safe. It's always good to share how you feel, and absolutely the right thing to flag up your feelings at a time like this. That's what friends and family are for: People care about you. BTW, please don't worry about responding to my own post, unless you particularly want to. But please do keep in touch if/when you have the energy. Best wishes. Bob
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  15. Bob

    Bob

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
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  16. GONZ0hunter

    GONZ0hunter

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    I care about your safety.

    I can't say much about the vitamin stuff. When I was first given synthroid it made me super paranoid.

    Please keep in touch and say something before you are going to do something.
     
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  17. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi fprefect. I think what I would do is take some "band-aid" supplements to get stable, then also add some methylation co-factors and also address the other SNPs you're not addressing.

    I would suggest:
    5htp for some serotonin (should help depression/OCD thoughts)
    GABA or theanine to build GABA in case your glutamine is high (causes anxiety)
    Taurine for heart palps
    Electrolytes (magnesium and potassium) Magnesium is also calming, and a co-factor for methylation. Both mag and potass should also help heart palps.
    Pharmaceutical grade fish oil such as Sears Labs Omega Rx (contains Omega 3 essential fatty acid which helps with pain and mood).
    The vitamin D that others have mentioned.
    Supporting the BHMT (secondary methylation pathway) with sunflower lecithin (converts to TMG).

    Try one thing at a time, start low to test for tolerance. Takes notes so you remember what is doing what.

    After you get stable, then do a trial of carefully lowering the Berocca.

    Your SNPs are suggesting that B12 is a worse issue for you than folate. (Unless you also have GST (glutathone SNPs) on the Detox Panel and/or mercury issues.

    ps - love the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference...
     
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  18. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Me too :)
     
  19. Bob

    Bob

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    I would be cautious about trying new supplements when feeling vulnerable. 5HTP, GABA, Vit D and fish oils can be stimulating, so may increase anxiety. (And I think I've reacted negatively to all of these supplements, but I may be unusual.) Just suggesting caution.
     
  20. fprefect

    fprefect Ford Prefect

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    my sister (psychiatrist. handy, huh?) said i don't need to be on a suicide watch for now. she said she will find someone to help me with meditation, which the (new) tinnitus is messing with. i made a phone appointment with a therapist to try to manage the panic and depression. hopefully, that should tide me over while i try to stabilise myself.

    without your responses, i would not have treated the suicidal thoughts as the highest priority. thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015

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