Paleolithic people ate porridge

[WillowJ]

It seems that once the gut has been destroyed it's very difficult to come back from that.

This seems true, or is in my case. Maybe when they sort out rules and protocols on FMT so everyone with gut issues can have that, things will improve.

 

[whodathunkit]

My first brief VLC ketogenic stint in 2003 was bad enough, but the second one in 2011-2012 left a wake of gut microbiome apocalypse so severe I still haven't recovered to baseline.

It's like we were separated at birth or something! Har Not only is this what happened to me (the first stint helped make me bad, the second one worse), but approximately the same timeline. Despite not good results the first time I tried it again simply because all the great things you read about it, I decided I hadn't given it a good shake or wasn't doing it right or something. It was more difficult the second time, and the side effects from ketosis were worse. I just couldn't stay with it...quit after just over a week. But the insulin resistance (and digestive/bowel irregularities) kicked in with a vengeance after the second attempt.

 

[Sidereal]

Despite not good results the first time I tried it again simply because all the great things you read about it, I decided I hadn't given it a good shake or wasn't doing it right or something.

Haha, same here.

 

[Gondwanaland]

FWIW, what I've learned and lived leads me to believe that liver health and over-intake of omega-6 fat play a BIG part in insulin resistance. Probably the biggest part, although I'm in no position to prove that. But I'm no longer convinced at all that the "demon carbs" are the main culprit. Instead, I think it's *added* omega-6 fat (in the form of oils used for cooking or garnishing) that are the problem. In part because they seem to have a very deleterious effect on the liver...although over-consumption of any fat is obviously not good for the liver, either. But omega-6 in particular. I also suspect that since grains contain omega-6

AND SEEDS

that may be why over-consumption of them seems to lead to insulin resistance. Plus, if you eat any processed food at all the food manufacturers sneak omega-6 oil into *everything*.

This perfectly matches my experience. And my husband's. Perhaps also this is why statins cause insulin resistance.

I was wondering if you would have any reading recommendations on this?

 

[whodathunkit]

I was wondering if you would have any reading recommendations on this?

Hmmm...I've been reading about this for quite a while so it's hard to remember where is best to learn about it. LOL

BUT...I think Ray Peat is a good place to start http://raypeat.com/articles/

Peat is pretty down on PUFA (the easily oxidized PolyUnsaturated FAts) and I don't agree with him on everything but IMO he's a "must read" for anyone learning and thinking critically about carbs, fat, and insulin resistance.

Danny Roddy does some nice syntheses of Ray Peat, and offers some ideas of his own. He has no credentials but does a good job of picking apart the "technical" aspects of a lot of physiological functioning. His latest ebook is on Amazon for download, I think it costs $0.99. I don't agree with all of Roddy's ideas, either, but it's nice that he does a lot of the "putting together" of Peat so we don't have to. He's coming at it from mainly a hair loss perspective (he says following Peat's dietary suggestions reversed his hair loss) but the basic physiology he discusses is relevant to everyone and at any rate hair health is usually a good indicator of overall health.

Peat also makes a good case for carbs but doesn't take into account starch and gut health, so is lacking as a unified theorist. But he's contributed a lot to the reversal of thinking on carbs that we're seeing, that counters Atkins and the silliness of the mainstream Paleo narrative.

Perfect Health Diet people seem to largely share Peat's views on PUFA, and there's a lot of good discussion of physiology in the PHD book. Anyone who notices my posts around here probably knows I like that book a lot.

I also found Barry Sears' (The Zone Diet guy) books to be pretty enlightening. AFAIK he was the first one to really start talking about (or at least popularize to the mainstream) the role of eicosanoids and fat ratios in inflammation and chronic conditions like insulin resistance/diabetes. I got a lot of good information on inflammation and insulin resistance out of his original book "The Zone", and also "The Anti-Inflammation Zone", even if his thoughts on PUFA are wrong. Everyone knows Sears as a low-carb guy but he also helped popularize (or maybe started) the high dose fish oil craze back in the early '00's. Of course we now know that high-dose fish oil is a BAD IDEA, but I jumped on that bandwagon back then and in fact the Zone with high-dose fish oil was the first dietary strategy I tried that ever made a truly positive, noticeable difference in my health. Before that I was basically taking it all on faith because alternative health strategies appealed to me. My triglycerides were over 200 when I started and within 3 months triglycerides had plummeted to like 60. My cholesterol was high, too, and that came down a lot as well, even if the HDL:LDL ratio still wasn't good. I remember the doctor at the university health clinic was extremely shocked at the very fast reduction of these crucial markers with no medication. Incidentally, I was first diagnosed with high triglycerides ("hyperlipidemia") two decades previous, when I was still a very young (and slender) woman.

If you decide to read Sears, please keep in mind he definitely contributes some of the silliness to our "popularized understanding" of diet and health that we're currently in the process of overcoming, but that doesn't negate the fact that there's some good info for non-scientific laypeople in his books. Particularly with respect to inflammation and its role in insulin resistance and diabetes.

Anyway, those are the places I'd start reading. You can go to PubMed and try to read the articles but these guys mostly break the jargon down for us unlearned peasants, which always appeals to me.

AND SEEDS

Yep, I don't eat nuts or seeds any more, or at least extremely infrequently. Oatmeal and occasionally other grain products are where I get most of omega-6. Maybe chicken and pork products but don't eat those much, either.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Danny Roddy does some nice syntheses of Ray Peat

Yes, I flirted with them earlier this year and liked what I read, especially the ice cream part

Perfect Health Diet people seem to largely share Peat's views on PUFA, and there's a lot of good discussion of physiology in the PHD book. Anyone who notices my posts around here probably knows I like that book a lot.

I couldn't get past the 1st pages of this book due to the silliness of the caveman bedtime stories

high triglycerides ("hyperlipidemia") two decades previous, when I was still a very young (and slender) woman

I have lost over 30 lbs on a whole grain diet and got back to my ideal weight, however my triglycerids went up close to 200, and in 2 years on this diet I had DVT which I attribute to vascular fragility caused by glutamine depletion.

You can go to PubMed and try to read the articles

There is too much junk in there, I keep remembering Freddd when he mentions those studies made with CyB12, a time waste.

Maybe chicken

When I was on SAD, and even on whole grain diet, chicken would always cause me migraines - obviously due to the n6 / PUFA stuff.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@whodathunkit
BTW Roddy's and Peat's advice are impossible to follow for people with uric acid / oxalate issues

 

[Sidereal]

I have lost over 30 lbs on a whole grain diet and got back to my ideal weight, however my triglycerids went up close to 200, and in 2 years on this diet I had DVT which I attribute to vascular fragility caused by glutamine depletion.

What did your diet consist of?

 

[whodathunkit]

BTW Roddy's and Peat's advice are impossible to follow for people with uric acid / oxalate issues

They're a bit much for most people, IMO. I did Roddy/Peat for a while (no starch, heavy on sugar, lots of OJ and milk, etc.) and it didn't do my blood sugar any favors. Didn't spike it as much as you would think according to the carb theory of insulin resistance, but I realize now that what was probably happening was the good gut bacteria simply wasn't getting enough RS to snack on in the distal colon. BUT, it does seem to work for Peat and Roddy, so maybe it's a decent approach as long as you're reasonably healthy to start. Which I was not. My physiology was loooonng whack before I tried Peat/Roddy. You're kinda whack, too , so that's why it didn't work for you, either.

I couldn't get past the 1st pages of this book due to the silliness of the caveman bedtime stories

Don't let the silliness stop you from partaking of the good bits. PHD has a lot to offer. Just ignore what doesn't resonate with you. That's what I do. For example, PHD basically says no grains, but I've never really subscribed to that for myself, because I have never had any sensitivity to any grain at all. I've done elimination and added wheat and the other grains back in and got no symptoms, etc. So I don't pay attention to the no grain part of PHD philosophy, except as it relates to my belief on the over-consumption of PUFA. PUFA theory *does* resonate with me based on my experience.. So what I eat is a synthesis of nutritional ideas that work for me.

For whatever that's worth.

 

[Gondwanaland]

What did your diet consist of?

It was a VERY inflammatory diet, you don't wanna know... My face looked like that: http://deliciouslyorganic.net/reverse-hashimotos-thyroid-disease/
I eliminated ready meals and most packaged foods, except for pasta...
Lots of homemade whole wheat bread and pizza, too many fruits and seeds.

Breakfast:
A ton of fruit with homemade gluten-free granola (amaranth, quinoa, seeds and nuts, freshly ground flax) Edit: + SOME WHEAT GERM

Lunch:
Pasta or brown rice+beans, meat, salads

Snack:
fruit + yogurt + seeds and nuts

Dinner:
Homemade whole wheat or whole rye bread from the grocer's, butter, cheese, ham, salads
On weekends DH would make whole wheat pizza

Then one day I run out of bananas and noticed my skin improved 5%. Then after one week without bananas my skin improved 40%. It took me a while to understand the oxalate/amine/gut issues.

 

[Gondwanaland]

PHD basically says no grains, but I've never really subscribed to that for myself,

I noticed that I tolerate better the lower oxalate/amine ones (e.g. red beans rather black beans)

 

[Sidereal]

It was a VERY inflammatory diet, you don't wanna know... My face looked like that: http://deliciouslyorganic.net/reverse-hashimotos-thyroid-disease/
I eliminated ready meals and most packaged foods, except for pasta...
Lots of homemade whole wheat bread and pizza, too many fruits and seeds.

Breakfast:
A ton of fruit with homemade gluten-free granola (amaranth, quinoa, seeds and nuts, freshly ground flax)

Lunch:
Pasta or brown rice+beans, meat, salads

Snack:
fruit + yogurt + seeds and nuts

Dinner:
Homemade whole wheat ort whole rye bread from the grocer's, butter, cheese, ham, salads
On weekends DH would make whole wheat pizza

Then one day I run out of bananas and noticed my skin improved 5%. Then after one week without bananas my skin improved 40%. It took me a while to understand the oxalate/amine/gut issues.

Have you considered the contribution of your 30 lb weight loss to the inflammation and DVT, rather than the diet itself? Lots of omega 6 fat is stored in Westerners who eat the SAD so when you embark on a weight loss diet you can, paradoxically, be more inflamed while that shit is emptying out of your fat stores.

 

[whodathunkit]

I noticed that I tolerate better the lower oxalate/amine ones (e.g. red beans rather black beans)

Whatever works for you. I tend to avoid beans for the most part, to err on the side of caution (just because of some of the things I've read that aren't related to omega-6, mostly about aflatoxin and some other crap like that), but if there's something I want to eat that has beans in it I will definitely do it. I just don't cook them as part of my regular diet. But it's about time for a nice big pot of spanish bean soup which has garbanzos AND the demon processed meat (chorizo) in it, so there you go.

 

[whodathunkit]

Lots of omega 6 fat is stored in Westerners who eat the SAD so when you embark on a weight loss diet you can, paradoxically, be more inflamed while that shit is emptying out of your fat stores.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Pity this isn't emphasized more when people lose weight, and it just isn't. I'm still going through this, although after a gazillion pounds I think I'm through the worst of it now. But my visible inflammation definitely went up for nearly a year while on methylation and then when I began losing weight. Still have another half gazillion pounds to go but it seems the most toxic layer of fat is gone. Knock wood.

 

[Sidereal]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Pity this isn't emphasized more when people lose weight, and it just isn't. I'm still going through this, although after a gazillion pounds I think I'm through the worst of it now. Still have another half gazillion to go but it seems the most toxic layer of fat is gone. Knock wood.

Not to mention the fat-soluble toxins coming out too. None of this is ever emphasised in the weight lo$$ community so when complications happen it's like *shrug*

 

[Gondwanaland]

Have you considered the contribution of your 30 lb weight loss to the inflammation and DVT, rather than the diet itself? Lots of omega 6 fat is stored in Westerners who eat the SAD so when you embark on a weight loss diet you can, paradoxically, be more inflamed while that shit is emptying out of your fat stores.

Right now I am convinced that the vascular fragility was due to glutamine depletion by fiber. There really wasn't a problem of coagulation.

I forgot to add that after loosing the weight, in addition to high Triglycerids, I also had a NAFLD

Other than that, I didn't feel toxic while loosing weight. Only when I took Methylfolate

 

[whodathunkit]

Not to mention the fat-soluble toxins coming out too.

I don't even want to think about what was in my adipose.

Not to mention the fat-soluble toxins coming out too. None of this is ever emphasised in the weight lo$$ community so when complications happen it's like *shrug*

It is a pity. You have to wonder how many people get derailed from healthy weight loss because of the detox.

This is one reason I'm not sweating the ups and downs I'm still having with blood sugar and also (apparently) gall bladder and some other things. Until I lose all the weight and shuck all the toxins and get my liver cleaned out I can't possibly know how healthy or unhealthy I really am. It's hard to just sit on my hands in the face of some of these symptoms, though. The gall bladder stuff recently has been particularly hard, since gb and pancreatitis symptoms are so similar and I'm paranoid about my pancreas because of the blood sugar issues and my past lifestyle (heavy drinker).

But enough of that. Don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Sidereal]

Back on the subject of porridge, I've been messing around with oats and oat bran lately and I've discovered that, in my case at least & I have no idea how applicable this would be to your situations, taking oat bran by itself is very inflammatory and causes the usual symptoms encountered on the RS and CB threads, whereas adding the same amount of oat bran to oatmeal reduces the inflammation to very modest levels. Go figure.

 

[Gondwanaland]

How much do you take and how do you prepare it, @Sidereal ?

 

[Sidereal]

How much do you take and how do you prepare it, @Sidereal ?

Well, I'd recommend starting low and going slow. I started with less than I am taking now. I'm doing a tablespoon of bran mixed into a normal adult portion of oats, whatever you'd normally eat. I just nuke it in the microwave for a couple of minutes.