The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
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Paleolithic diet - helpful or harmful for people with CFS?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Kitsune, Oct 18, 2015.

  1. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    Hi everyone, I was searching the forums here for something else and came across a thread called 'Paleolithic people ate porridge', in which several people said their health had deteriorated on the Paleolithic diet. If you've tried eating Paleo, I'd like to invite you to share your experience here.

    A little info about my own situation. I've got a problem with sugar addiction - lifelong really. Big comfort eater, in a couple of senses. My goal for a long time was to be able to stick to a way of eating that would ameliorate the sugar cravings and generally heal my body. I worked with a naturopathic doctor for several years who was a big advocate of Paleo, and I always believed it could be very healing. Mind you, I was never strict with it - you're supposed to avoid legumes and potatoes as well as grains, plus all dairy. I do have dairy, particularly cheese, and have some peas and sweet potatoes on occasion. I also don't go with Loren Cordian's insistance on lean meat; eating like that isn't satisfying for me. I have always craved fat; now I just try to make sure I get the right kinds - animal fat from high-quality meat, olive oil, butter, and a krill oil supplement.

    I could never stick with this for more than a few months at a time before giving in to eating sugar again, though the reasons for that were usually either psychological, or because a heavy bout of SAD was coming on (coupled with all the Christmas sweeties people bring into the office in November and December). But recently I have been 'on the trolley' for three and a half months. But the thread I read caused me to question whether I'm doing the right thing for myself. Okay, so during those three and a half months:

    Pros: more energy, feel more awake, more motivation to do things, stable blood sugar, no food cravings, gradual weight loss (very much needed).

    Cons: My other symptoms have worsened, particularly my malfunctioning body clock. I thought this was because I am no longer getting the endorphins, dopamine, or whatever it was that I got from eating loads of sugary things every day. And in order to maintain that effect I really would have to eat enough to cause me lots of problems in other respects - rich, fatty desserts several times a day between healthy meals, mainly.

    Now I'm wondering if a few unprocessed 'brown' grains here and there might help; I don't know. I tend to feel quite bloated when I go back to eating them. I used to start every day with a bowl of porridge, but when I try it after I've been on a 'clean' diet it makes me veeeeerrry sleeeeepy - not what you want from breakfast! And rice gives me a stomach ache, as do ordinary potatoes. Surely that's an indicator of something?

    So I'd be interested to find out how many people here chime in with a positive or negative experience of eating this way. If most posters say it didn't work for them, I will have a serious re-think about what I'm doing.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. 0kaygrl

    0kaygrl

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    The paleo diet is very good for healing the gut and decreasing inflammation. I had a drastic reduction in pain using this diet. A couple of things: make sure you eat a lot of safe starches, like sweet potatoes, plantains, bananas, even white potatoes and white rice are ok in some paleo templates. The diet may have you unintentionally eating lots of extra histamine, this happened to me, so I would discourage doing the bacon, tomato, avocado with every meal version of this diet. Skip the kombucha and other ferments. Do quick bone broths.

    Be mindful about eating fresh foods and not eating too much histamine in one day. If I were to do this diet again I'd implement a moderate histamine approach and make sure it's 60% vegetables, 20% fruit and 20% meat... These are off the cuff numbers but you get the point.

    TL;DR: Less meat, more plants, moderate your histamine intake
     
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  3. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    Thank you. I did notice that fermented foods seem to make me feel worse, which seemed odd. And I believe I'm in less pain as well, though fortunately that's never been a major symptom for me.

    When I got ill I was certainly not on Paleo, and was doing the daily porridge for breakfast thing. For a while I tried a diet that involved eating 'brown' carbs - whole wheat flour, brown rice, veg, etc, and also a bit of potato at night to stimulate the conversion of tryptophan to serotonin. None of it helped, so I'm not sure there's much point in trying to go back to that in my case. What I don't want is it all falling apart and the sugar addiction returning; I really need to keep that out of my life.
     
  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Kitsune, I was a life-long junk food addict. Sugary stuff, but also high fat. After I started SSRI's 20 years ago I went through a phase where I ate only ice cream (about a gallon a day) for several months. Doing Atkins, The Zone, Paleo, and Danny Roddy/Ray Peat style all caused various cravings and rebound weight gain for me. Telling you this to establish my "bona fides" as a fellow sufferer.

    I have totally fixed my food cravings and junk food recidivism by doing the following: methylation, fixing my gut with pre- and probiotics, cutting omega-6 fats from my diet, adding enough good starch from food to my diet, and intermittent fasting. I've lost 70lbs, but the real miracle for me is no more cravings. I don't crave sweets any more! I just don't care about them. One of my bosses had a "tea" for us the other day where she brought in these heavenly gourmet cupcakes from a local deli. I ate one the day of the tea because stuff like that should never be avoided entirely as they are one of the pleasures of life, but only one, and the next day there were some leftovers in the breakroom all day that I didn't touch. Didn't want to.

    I still like something sweet to top off a meal (I like a balanced meal where we get a little bit of all possible flavors, IMO it keeps us satisfied), but some grapes or a piece of fruit, or a couple of dates + a few small squares of 85% dark chocolate will do it. Or I'll have a cup of Earl Grey with cream and sugar with breakfast, or put honey in a small amount of porridge. Etc.

    It really sounds to me like you may need to add high-quality complex starch to your diet, plus cut omega-6 fat entirely for a while. Concentrate only on getting saturated fats. IMO low levels of good starch that my gut bugs could eat, coupled with unhealthy levels of omega-6 fat (which can compromise the ability of cells to function properly and cause problems like insulin resistance) were the main drivers of my cravings. I could NEVER manage to stay on a meat + veggie diet (or even a meat + sugar diet like Roddy/Peat) for more than a few months at a time, even when it was high fat. I was always driven back to large amounts of carbs.

    IME poorly balanced gut flora and starving gut bacteria are primary drivers of cravings. Paleo type diets without starch can be a cause of this problem, and can definitely exacerbate it. You mostly can't eat enough veggies so that enough of their fibers make it to the large intestine to feed the bugs there, so those guys are always starving. Sugar and simple carbs can't make it back there, either. And when your gut bugs are starving, they're clamoring for food (i.e., causing cravings). Only complex carbs and insoluble fibers found in starchy foods (and some fruit) can make it back there to feed them.

    Cutting omega-6 and upping saturated fat will help with cravings because SF restores the integrity of the lipid membranes of all cells, which helps with proper glucose, nutrient, and neurotransmitter uptake, etc. Gut bugs may like SF, too, although there's no proof of that supposition, at least as far as I know.

    Going without food for short, strategic lengths of time (i.e., intermittent fasting) prompts your body to go into clean-up mode, scavenging dead or malfunctioning cells and cellular debris that may be hanging around causing problems. Also prompts the immune system to replace the scavenged cells with fresh ones that can do their jobs more effectively, and to release HGH, good stuff like that.

    Of course if you've been sick for a while you need to educate yourself about all these strategies (if you haven't already), because implementing them can result in up-and-down progress. Depending upon how sick you are, you might not be able to tolerate some strategies. I went through a lot of crashes and detox on the way to where I am now (80-90% of "normal person" function), and I still go up and down. But I haven't crashed in nearly a year (no colds, flu, or PEM) and I'm pretty confident I'll make it all the way to 100% within the next couple years.

    But again, one of the most thrilling things for me is that my food cravings are GONE. Even if I never get to 100%, it's a huge, huge win that food no longer compels me or runs my life. I no longer feel guilt when I eat anything. I like and enjoy what I eat every single day, regardless of whether I'm eating staple "peasant food" like eggs and porridge, or I'm out for a gourmet meal. I eat what I want, in the amounts that come naturally to me (desire to overeat is also gone). I don't obsess about what tastes I'm missing because of a certain eating style, because no taste is missing. Plus, when I get really hungry, I can be satisfied with whatever I find to ready-to-eat right now. It's simply marvelous. I never, ever thought I'd arrive at this place...not while I was in this incarnation, anyway. And while the main point is I'm healthy and craving-free, the relatively easy weight loss don't hurt, either. ;)

    Anyway, sorry for gushing. It's all still kind of new. :) My main point is I think that all of us food addicts can get to this place. It's all about gut health. If I had it all to do over again, I might start off by addressing my gut health probiotics and a starchy diet. Maybe one day fasting per week. Then work up to more fasting and methylation from there.

    For whatever that's worth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
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  5. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I too have a history of binge eating and eating disorders and my eating has normalized on a Palleo diet. I started eating that way when I got sick on the advice of my naturopath. I rarely over eat now. Also my hypo glycemia has disappeared.

    I eat eggs, meat and some seafood, wild salmon mostly - all in moderate amounts and a lot of veggies, some fruit and a little starch, like yams. Seeds are chia and hemp sometimes. Some walnuts. No dairy, rarely grains eg quinoa, white rice.

    I've been pretty sedentary like most of us here for three years yet have remained lean and slim. That's been a big surprise. I think it's because of my diet as well as cold water therapy.
     
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  6. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    Thanks to you both for your posts. It really is good to talk to people who have had similar experiences to me, be it problems with food or CFS. Maybe I've been missing the benefits of actively using a forum.

    I definitely try to avoid omega-6 fats where I can, as I know the modern diet is awash in them. On top of my krill oil supplement I basically cook with olive oil or butter/ghee - would use coconut oil, but I prefer the taste of the other two. Sally Fallon and Mary Enig's research into fats (Weston A. Price Foundation) was a big help for me, and also went some way towards alleviating the guilt I'd always felt about liking fatty things, which conventional dietary wisdom says is 'bad'. I'm the one who always wanted the corner of the cake with all the frosting, or the piece of meat lined with thick fat. It is actually liberating to know that I can eat the rich foods I love, as long as I know what's in them and only eat until I'm comfortably full - and I can still lose weight that way. IBS used to be one of my CFS symptoms, but no longer. So I guess my initial question is already answered . . . stick with Paleo. I will take the advice of adding a few more healthy starches though, as I think that's a good idea.

    'Whodathunkit' - I have a question for you that sidetracks from this topic, but I hope it's OK to ask it here, as I'm not sure it would be appropriate at this point to start a whole new thread. I've had the time to do a lot of browsing on this forum this weekend and noticed that you seem to know a lot about methylation, having followed a protocol yourself. I didn't even know what methylation was until recently, and my grasp of it is still rather shaky. At first I was just setting out to support my liver, with the goal of helping my body somehow to be able to better absorb supplements, so that it would eventually accept some natural antiviral ones that currently I cannot take.

    I have just today started taking sublingual methylcobalamin (2000mcg today), and had also got some NAC to try, though now I see that it is contraindicated by Freddd. I also had a potassium deficiency recently, which I thought I eliminated with about a week's worth of taking a supplement, though now I'm wondering if I will need it again . . . should I also get some methylfolate . . . my new food-based multi contains folate, but I don't know what kind. Basically, I'm wondering if I'm working too much from ignorance here, and whether I should seriously learn about methylation and follow a protocol. It also looks seriously expensive, I'd have no support from a doctor, and perhaps I'd be OK doing something simpler? I can't understand a lot of what Freddd saying, and I'm a well educated person. Do you know of a good place to start with some basic info, particularly regarding supplements?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Some people may need to modify it based on needs like carbohydrates.
     
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  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    It's possible your sugar cravings indicate Candida. Re diet, I've been on GAPS 3.5 years. I've heard it said that Paleo is for healthy people, GAPS is for unwell people. I've only just stopped eating bone broth. I won't be returning to grains. Maybe an occasional bit of sweet potato. I've found that fat as fuel works for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  9. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    Fortunately I am no longer having sugar cravings, now that I'm on Paleo. Or if I do get them, it's usually because I've done something to stress my system. I did look into candida a while back and did various cleanses; in a way that also taught me to be extremely careful with antifungal meds, because most of them lower cortisol, and I already have low cortisol. Lowering it further is . . . well, I don't want to go there again.

    What is GAPS?
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    A low carb diet raises cortisol
     
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  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Yeah, the problem for me with ketosis/"fat as fuel" is that it seems to cause chronic gut problems and insulin resistance. After my first round of Atkins was when my blood sugar went really wonky and it's been weird ever since. I've read that low carb/reduced starch does cause insulin resistance (possibly in response to raised cortisol) in quite a few people, and I'm not convinced it's a good long-term daily health strategy except maybe in cases of neurological disease like MS. But that's just my opinion based on personal experience, although there has been some recent "objective" evidence that shows it, too. YMMV. There is anecdotal evidence around here for low-carb causing problems with gut flora, too.

    One problem with low-carb raising cortisol is that if the adrenals are already stressed, that extra stress could harm them more. I think I may have read about that, too. I dunno. It's all very hard to tease out. I think we all just have to try these things and see how they work for us. Daily low-carb, while it seemed beneficial in the long run, is something I believe caused me long-term problems. YMMV.

    Anyway, IME the main drivers of cravings are lack of adequate energy production (i.e., mitochondrial dysfunction) and poorly balanced gut flora. Of course other things like nutrient deficiencies will cause cravings, too, but IME the recidivism pattern (several months or even half a year without cravings when undertaking a new eating style, followed by return cravings after a period of time) are probably due to one or both these things.

    @Kitsune, I don't really know much about methylation. I've just had success glomming onto what smarter people than me have written about it, and following their advice. @Freddd is one of my heroes now. :) I think also my decades of dabbling with supplements and natural health helped me follow what I've learned from him and others, because those years taught me how to listen closely to my body, and also to help me differentiate between a beneficial healing crisis and something that is truly not working or harming me.

    I do advise learning as much as you can about methylation right now, if you're interested in pursuing a protocol, especially if you've been sick for a while. It can be a real rollercoaster ride, especially in the beginning. There are two sticky threads at the top of the Detox Forum that IMO are a must read: "Active B-12 Protocol Basics" and "B-12: The Hidden Story". Other good threads are the sticky "Simplified Methylation Protocol revised as of today", although I like Freddd's approach better. Also, @ahmo has done some good documents summarizing Freddd's protocol (click the numbers "2,3, 4" in her signature line) and has some other good links in her signature as well. @caledonia also has some good info in her signature.

    Skip the NAC right now, and if you're really interested in methylation, concentrate on learning about and applying that for a while. NAC can help ramp up glutathione production and cause detox, and increased metabolism caused by kick-starting methylation can cause your cells to detox, too. Both together could overload your system. Plus, if you try multiple things at once and you have a problem with something, it's a lot harder to suss out what's causing the problem if you've just started multiple things.

    I like NAC and find it useful but really can't take it daily, anyway. I start to feel not good if I kick-start glutathione production too much for too long. I use it episodically, especially when I'm deliberately doing a detox like chelation. Episodic use works very well for me.

    Freddd's Deadlock Quartet, however (L-carnitine fumarate, mB12, adb12, and mfolate), are daily must-haves for me. I recently just ramped up my daily dosage again of mB12 and mfolate because I'd let them get too low for too long, and I suddenly realized the low-low dosages were causing me problems. I've topped up my levels again and am feeling much better.

    HTH. Just learn all you can if you're interested, and try what seems like it might work best for your bod. Good luck! :)
     
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  12. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    What would be an example of your daily menu while you were losing weight? I am familiar with the PHD, having read the first edition of their book years ago, not sure if recommendations have changed since. I must say that diet makes me gain weight steadily but with the caveat that I have pretty severe gut dysbiosis. I also never managed to completely eliminate omega 6 (I was still using a bit of olive oil for frying and salad dressings).
     
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  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Sidereal:

    Still am losing weight. I'll probably stop in another 30-40lbs or so. I'm more worried about how I feel than how I look, although as I lose weight and look better I'm beginning to care a bit more about my appearance. And to minimize sag I may actually lose more than I want for a while, let the skin shrink, and then purposely gain a few to tighten up the skin. :D We'll just have to see. I was quite a heavy hitter, although now that I've started admitting my top weight (246lbs) everyone who knows me seems very surprised it was that high. I am one of those people who get fat everywhere...even my hat size and shoe size has changed. It doesn't all go to one area.

    Anyway, after some thought lately, I realize I have probably been under-attributing intermittent fasting in my health success. Since January I've done three 4-day reset fasts, and practiced mostly 5:2 with daily 16:8. BUT, there have been episodes of a few weeks at a time when I haven't fasted at all except for 16:8, because that's what my body seemed to want. A few days here and there I haven't paid attention to 16:8, either, although I try hard to stick to that. Currently I'm trying 4:3 (four days eating, three days fasting) along with 16:8, to kind of shake things up weight-loss wise. That seems to have kicked me off the plateau I was on. If it gets to be too much I'll drop some of the fasting days.

    I definitely think the fasting has really helped me with "cellular clean up" and some of my energy gains. Fasting days are getting easier and I always feel better the day after. Fasting has also helped bring down my blood sugar overall, although it can still be fussy. Possibly after you see what I ate yesterday, you won't wonder why.

    FWIW, 16:8 alone is supposed to help lose weight, if your hypoglycemia can't tolerate longer fasts.

    That said, here's what I ate yesterday in a 6 hour "feeding window":

    Breakfast around 1:00p:
    1 cup of Earl Grey with bit of sugar and heavy cream
    1.5 cups porridge
    1 or 2 tablespoons honey
    4 slices bacon
    3 eggs fried in butter

    Supper around 6:30p:
    6oz ground beef patty
    1 large sweet potato
    1.5 tbsp coconut oil (total for day)
    large bowl raw salad greens
    handful of red grapes
    handful of kalamata olives
    Olive brine for salad dressing
    3 dates
    6 small squares dark 85% chocolate

    I was hungry. :)

    I didn't set out to have a six hour feeding window yesterday, it just happened that way due to circumstances. Normally it's around 8 hours, wherein I'll have two meals with a hot creamy beverage as a snack (normally decaf coffee with cream but no sugar).

    It's not strict PHD but it's the framework of meat + healthy starch + no omega-6. IIRC olives are not omega-6 but a different kind of fat they call "omega 9".

    Today I'm fasting, and will try to fast again on Wednesday and Friday. Or maybe only Thursday. Depends on how I feel. I'm not beating myself up over any of this, that's the greatest thing about it.

    I do take digestive enzymes, and am still doing weekly or twice weekly rounds of various probiotics with raw potato starch chaser.

    That help?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  14. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Very helpful, thanks! Congratulations on your spectacular weight loss. It's not so much that you've lost 70 lbs, it's that you've done it without starvation and energy conversation / crashed metabolism symptoms developing. That's remarkable. Several years ago I lost 65 lbs following a very low carb ketogenic diet with 16/8 daily IF. This completely ruined my health (as we talked about before) and I also know many others who crashed doing this. So I am curious whether the work on the gut microbiome and methylation you've been doing is the key ingredient to your success.

    The menu looks yummy.

    With regard to porridge, do you eat regular oats or do you add oat bran to it?
     
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Gut and Psychology Syndrome, designed after the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) by Neurologist Natasha Campbell-McBride to help her son w/ autism. Most (?) of the members of the yahoo GAPS forums are dealing w/ ASD.

    Here's the official FAQ page for GAPS. There are dozens of blogs by people working with GAPS, let me know if you want more info.
     
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  16. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    This has been a really interesting discussion. And it's so hard to know what's right for oneself. The (loose) Paleo diet, I believe, has helped me in some significant ways. Even now, I'm trying to get used to a new multivitamin (currently only able to take half a dose) and 1000 mcg daily of methylcobalamin (seemingly too much at the moment) and am experiencing related symptoms, but the anxiety and depression are staying away. I'd always rather have physical than mental/emotional symptoms. I also try to eat lots of veg, so technically I don't know if you could call my diet low-carb as such; veg are the slowest-burning carbs you can have. I think it's quite possible that my cortisol has been raised though. Rather paradoxical, that. I had a saliva test in the past that showed low cortisol, and that's what my symptoms have always indicated; but of course something that raises cortisol probably isn't good either, because that means it's stressing you.

    By the way, I tried fasting in the past, but that also stressed my system too much. I was a wreck on the days I fasted, even though I was juicing and consuming several tablespoons of coconut oil. It's a shame, because otherwise that's something I would perhaps stick with - and I imagine it's not too bad on the wallet either :)

    whodathunkit - about the methylation again, if you don't mind. I found the threads you mentioned and have dipped in and out of them for a couple of days, and think I understand Freddd's protocol better now. However, what I can't find anywhere is an explanation for why a methylation protocol might be useful in the first place, because a) I've seen several people say that it doesn't actually heal the CFS, and b) I don't understand the ethos behind taking huge doses of B12 as opposed to long-term steady supplementation for a deficiency. Am I missing something here, maybe?
     
  17. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Absolutely. I consider both to be key. I have NEVER experienced the same uptick in energy or wellness with any eating style as I've consistently experienced first with methylation and then taking it to another, better level by adding in the gut stuff. They are the foundation of it all.

    The thing about PHD-style and intermittent fasting is they give us permission to eat the way we really want (carbs + fat + protein) in amounts we find satisfying, while still enjoying the benefits of good clean livin'. But if I'd started off with PHD and IF I'm not sure it would have dealt with my cravings as effectively as starting them after I had the other stuff in place. Both methylation and gut stuff reduced my cravings to a remarkable degree, but I would still get them. But PHD and IF seemed to put the nail in their coffin.

    I feel I must give a special shout-out to l-carnitine fumarate as a foundation of my new-found energy, though. It really seemed to make the difference for me, I suppose by helping me build mitochondria. When I got to where I could take more than 250mg/day of that without jittering and jiving is when things really seemed to take off and become much more stable. IMO LCF may still be underrated in the grand scheme of approaches to methylation.

    P.S. Thank you for not referring to me as a Philistine for having the temerity to put cream and sugar in my EG. I realize for some residents of the U.K. that might have taken some fortitude. ;)

    P.P.S. No oat bran. Scottish oatmeal only.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  18. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    LOL well luckily for you I don't live in the UK. Here in Ireland we are more tolerant of people drinking tea the wrong way. ;)
     
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  19. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Kitsune:

    Here's a really good, simplified link on methylation that I hijacked from @ahmo's signature:

    http://ihateticks.me/2014/10/06/methylation-for-dummies/

    I like it all and find it quite informative except she conflates the term folic acid with actual methylfolate. Methylfolate and folic acid are NOT the same thing, and methylfolate is NOT "the good form of folic acid". Rather, folic acid is "a toxic form of methylfolate".

    Also to overlook is the editorializing at the end when she tries to define what kinds of statements "quacks" make about methylation. Contra her dismissive remarks, IME methylation provoked quite a bit of "detox". I don't understand why but it did. I frequently crashed while my body was trying to get rid of or burn off this or that. And I frequently felt worse on things before I got better on them. LCF is a good example. Generally speaking, I've found I sometimes have to acclimate to things, or even stop taking things for a while because of bad side effects, and circle back around to try them later, only to find they no longer give me sides and they've suddenly become a big help. Except with methylcobalamin injections, nothing in this process has been much of a straight upward trajectory of improvement for me. Mostly it's been three steps forwards and two steps back. Which, as I always say, is a postiive net gain of a step, so it's a win. You can complete the journey like that, even if it takes longer.

    The link above also doesn't address the mitochondrial/energy aspect of methylation that Freddd postulated and eloquently explained, which I to be absolutely found true. One day I'm going to commit it all to memory, but sadly, am still workin' on that. ;)

    But it does explain a bit about the methylation process in a way that's easy to understand.

    It actually stressed me quite a bit when I first started, too. It was a bit of a struggle, and I probably would have abandoned it if I hadn't been so sold on the facts I learned about it (increased autophagy, rebound white cell formation, etc.). This is opposed to dabbling with fasitng in the past based on the nebulous concepts of "resting my digestive tract" and "self-denial builds character". And even with the science behind fasting, if I had started heavy fasting (24+ hours at a time) sooner in my recovery, I might not have been able to stick with it.

    Worth noting is that it's taken me months to get really acclimated to it, and it's only been in the past couple weeks that I would say it's gotten relatively easy.

    So, can you try something like 16/8 fasting? That's when you don't eat for 16 hours per day and consume your calories in an 8 hour window. It's much, much less stress than trying 24 or 36 hours to start, and is supposed to convey many of the same health benefits as the long daily or 4-day fasts.

    Also to remember is that if you fast for 24 hours you still get to consume 500 calories. It's not all water fasting (unless you want to make it that way).

    But for 16/8, you shouldn't eat for the entire 16 hours.

    Maybe you could try that, to see if it works for you?

    You may be confused between methylcobalamin (mB12) and adenosylcobalamin (adB12). mB12 needs to be supplemented pretty much daily no matter what, but adB12 can be taken once per week if your existing levels are sufficient.

    You may need large doses of mB12 daily at first, but then the daily dose can be reduced as you attain sufficiency.

    That said, I believe if you're coming from deficiency (most of us are) you should do both of these daily for however long it takes you to feel better...just take them several hours apart. Then once you're relatively sure your deficiencies have been erased, you can keep yourself up with a largish dose of adB12 once per week and do a daily maintenance dose of mB12.

    Personally, I take huge doses of mB12 every day. Used to inject 5mg/day when I first started, for anemia and to resolve deficiency, but now am doing 1mg/day. That's what I need to feel right. Even injecting 1mg/day 3x/week does not keep me in sufficient mB12 to support mood and energy. For economic reasons I'm going to try to take it down to 0.5mg/day to see if that works, but wherever I land with mB12 dosage I know I need it daily, and in fairly big amounts.

    I also take 5mg adB12 per week, spread out over the course of a few days. Some people like doing a huge dose of adB12 on one day per week and then mB12 only on the other days, but I found more frequent smaller doses of adB12, spread out, work better for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  20. Kitsune

    Kitsune Senior Member

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    Whodathunkit - sorry, not sure how to tag a member here!

    Thanks for the link - I managed to find it earlier too, and it's pretty simple at the start, isn't it? :) I guess I'm trying to relate these things to myself, wondering what's best to do. For me, the arrows are pointing more in the direction of virus(es) as the cause of my CFS, and I'd like to head in that direction first if possible. So I mainly want to be able to tolerate the supplements I need for that. I'm a little wary of deciding I must have a genetic methylation issue that must be treated for life, and at this point I don't want to pay a lot of money for private tests that supposedly confirm this. My instinct is that something specific set this off for me rather suddenly 11 years ago, something caught up with lifelong stress that was particularly acute at that time.

    That huge dose of B12 I was referring to was 15-20mg a day, with the lozenges, though I get the impression that after a while (not sure how long) you drop it back down. I was wondering what the benefit of that is likely to be, when surely a deficiency can be addressed with lower amounts.

    I wouldn't have a problem trying the methylation supplements at any rate - the ones I haven't already. I haven't taken folic acid for years now and am wondering if that was what was overstimulating me in the rather cheap B-complex I used to take; my food-based vitamin has 'folate' in it, though I know if I were serious about following the protocol I would also need to get some of the Solgar methylfolate that's recommended. It's a shame that the recommended brand of adB12 has folic acid in it. I found a more recent version of Fredd's protocol that recommends a different brand - pills, I think - but it's £30 a bottle here, so that's on the back burner for the moment; I'd rather give the lozenges a try first. Happy to try LCF at some point too, though in my case I'm not so sure about how well it will work; every single amino acid I've ever taken has either done nothing for me or made me feel worse, and I'd come to the conclusion that it was better to give my body the building blocks to make them itself than to try to supplement them.

    Thanks also for the info about fasting. I may well come back to that once I have my supplements sorted out. I'm a 'try to do what's most natural' kind of person, and I imagine our bodies must be geared toward periods of going without food. It could also maybe enhance the weight-loss process. Thanks for sharing your experiences with that, and I'm glad you've found so many things that work for you x
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015

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