• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

PACE trial re-analysis and the 2007 NICE guideline on ME/CFS

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
If the scandal grows, and think it could be that this will be something that forces change to the way NICE does things. They badly messed up. Comments from people like Crawley and Bavinton on PACE show that they clearly were not fit to be involved in the NICE guidelines. If NICE wants to continue to pretend these sorts of people should be respected then they should be pushed to engage publicly with patients' concerns about the quality of their work. (I realise this may all seem unrealistic to @charles shepherd right now, but we've made progress on PACE in ways that would have seemed unrealistic to many just a couple of years ago imo).
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Can I just say that things are 'going on behind the scenes' in relation to NICE and the re-analysis has been forwarded to NICE

As you are probably aware, NICE don't really engage with the wider public and I can't see this position changing, or an exception being made in the case of ME/CFS

They only way they do engage with the public is at a very safe distance by inviting people and charities etc to become 'stakeholders' in the formal guideline development process (MEA is a stakeholder)

The best way we currently have of getting the message through to NICE (and NHS England) is through the high level contacts we have developed as a result of the meetings at the House of Lords that have been chaired by the Countess of Mar

And I can assure everyone that this contact is continuing
 

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
Can I just say that things are 'going on behind the scenes' in relation to NICE and the re-analysis has been forwarded to NICE

As you are probably aware, NICE don't really engage with the wider public and I can't see this position changing, or an exception being made in the case of ME/CFS

They only way they do engage with the public is at a very safe distance by inviting people and charities etc to become 'stakeholders' in the formal guideline development process (MEA is a stakeholder)

The best way we currently have of getting the message through to NICE (and NHS England) is through the high level contacts we have developed as a result of the meetings at the House of Lords that have been chaired by the Countess of Mar

And I can assure everyone that this contact is continuing

NICE mode of functioning sounds to me to be arrogant, elitist and seriously flawed.

So patients who are be harmed by NICE sanctioned treatments can't make their voice heard unless they can get someone in the establishment to listen to them and put their point across, and even then if the ME situation is anything to judge things by, NICE can completely ignore these reports of harm for years. What a great system.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
They only way they do engage with the public is at a very safe distance by inviting people and charities etc to become 'stakeholders' in the formal guideline development process (MEA is a stakeholder)

Have you considered asking them to review the mea survey on GET /CBT ?

Do they take into account papers which show the harms associated with exercise ? Wouldn't it be good for these papers to carry weight resulting in exercise being acknowledged as a cause of PEM ?

Thanks for all the ongoing work.
 

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
Professor Mark Baker at NICE is aware of the conclusions in the NIH report

They add to the pressure on NICE

But as already noted, NICE has a massive workload and revising existing guidelines

So when they do not feel there is compelling evidence to revise an existing guideline, this does not become one of their priorities…….

I'm sorry but having a massive workload is an inexcusable excuse for NICE to hide behind for not revising existing guidelines more quickly.

We're talking about people's health and safety here. There is an urgency. There is a responsibility of care.

How many more adults and children will become severely affected through CBT/GET between now and 2017 or 18 when they get round to reviewing the guidelines?

Where do NICE stand legally if they continue to promote the 2007 guidelines without issuing any warning to doctors or patients about the whole PACE fiasco?

Have the charities looked into this as a means of putting real pressure on NICE to act?
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I hope people appreciate that I am not trying to defend the position being taken by NICE over a revision of the ME/CFS guideline

I'm just trying to explain the various reasons, as have been expressed at meetings with NICE representatives, as to why they take this position

The MEA has not gone down the route of consulting m'learned friends (and spending membership fees on legal fees at at £250 per hour or more) about the situation regarding the PACE trial

In my opinion this would be money down the drain

But there are other areas where a legal opinion might be helpful….
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
I hope people appreciate that I am not trying to defend the position being taken by NICE over a revision of the ME/CFS guideline

The evidence suggests that neither CBT/GET lead to dramatic changes, nor recovery, then surely the recommendation should be changed to CBT/GET being referred to as adjunct therapies?
 

medfeb

Senior Member
Messages
491
The evidence suggests that neither CBT/GET lead to dramatic changes, nor recovery, then surely the recommendation should be changed to CBT/GET being referred to as adjunct therapies?

But what kind of adjunct therapy would that be? Would it still be to convince patients that they are not really sick? Or would it be using those labels but referring to some other therapeutic intent?

CDC states that it is not recommending PACE style CBT and GET and they are just recommending them as management, not as treatment. But the problem is that the intended approach, benefit, potential harms, etc is ambiguous and easily misinterpreted. This creates medical confusion and puts patients at risk of harm - especially when the bulk of CBT/GET references in the evidence base are to reverse illness beliefs/deconditioning.
 
Last edited:

medfeb

Senior Member
Messages
491
Food for thought...
While the UK and US challenges are different in some ways, in some ways they are similar - CDC is sticking to its recommendations for CBT and GET even after the AHRQ Evidence Review Addendum. As it stands now, any change that does come about is going to be very slow. In the U.S., we also have other medical education providers who also promote CBT and GET, sometimes directly sourcing PACE and including statements about illness beliefs, personality issues, child abuse history as a risk, etc.

So what evidence and actions will create the tipping point that these institutions (e.g. NICE, CCDC, and in the US, other med ed providers, etc) can not ignore? We have at least the following so far

1. Analysis of PACE's study conduct issues by David Tuller of University of California, Berkeley and by Rebecca Goldin of George Mason University and Stats.org backed up by lots of published comments and additional analysis

2. The initial reanalysis of released PACE data published on Virology Blog

3. The call in the AHRQ evidence review and NiH's Pathways to Prevention (P2P) workshop to retire the Oxford definition, with the P2P report stating that the Oxford definition could "impair progress and cause harm."

4. The AHRQ Evidence Review Addendum that found insufficient evidence for GET and barely any evidence for CBT when Oxford studies were excluded. The Addendum noted that the use of Oxford definition studies "results in a high risk of including patients who may have an alternate fatiguing illness or whose illness resolves spontaneously with time.” The Addendum also noted that none of the studies had used ME or ME/CFS definitions (e.g. no definitions requiring PEM). The weakness here is that a note has not yet been added to the Annals article. Trying to get that.

5. Patient surveys and statements that have repeatedly reported harm from CBT and GET. This includes a 2015 patient survey which reported that while a small number were helped by CBT and GET, many more were harmed. CDC's rationale is that some patients are helped by these therapies but clearly, the risk of harm far outweighs the benefits.

6. IOM report - lots of compiled information/evidence that refutes the activity avoidance-deconditioning disease theory behind PACE and the other Oxford psychogenic studies and comes from a prestigious source - at least prestigious to the U.S. Also provides biomedical supports for patient reports of harm.

7) hopefully a publication on the reanalysis of the PACE data.

8) continued publications of biological pathologies that directly undermine the PACE BPS theory - Naviaux example

9) Unprecedented support against PACE, including from academics outside the field.

What else do we have?

What else do we need and how do we go about getting it?

What is holding us back and how do we counter that?
- e.g. Cochrane reviews that counter the AHRQ Addendum conclusions - what can be done about that?
- institutional and power players that don't want to change - embarrassment? lawsuits? More noise about other work like Magenta? other actions?
- attitudes of medical providers - the IOM report noted that medical provider attitudes toward the disease was going to be the bigger barrier than their lack of knowledge.
Edited to include ideas from later posts:
Added #8 and 9 - new science countering PACE theory, strong professional support against PACE from inside and outside the field
 
Last edited:

daisybell

Senior Member
Messages
1,613
Location
New Zealand
I think we need mainstream media to really start to take an interest... Now the PACE re-analysis is out, and there is so much juicy fodder for them, I have to say I'm a bit surprised that no major newspaper has had the courage to run a decent length article. It seems that we are so tarred with the irrational, extremist label that we are untouchable in every sense...too risky for mainstream media. How do we change that?
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
In the absence of effective treatments for ME, NICE could stress the importance of treating the symptoms or other abnormalities (infections, OI, etc) on their own merits, and maybe even pacing if we can dig up some evidence for it (patient surveys).
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
In the absence of effective treatments for ME, NICE could stress the importance of treating the symptoms or other abnormalities (infections, OI, etc) on their own merits, and maybe even pacing if we can dig up some evidence for it (patient surveys).

If they've got nothing to offer at this point they should be honest about it and at least recommend complete rest.

The Charite's (University hospital in Berlin) main recommendation to me was pacing, and the dr would have taken plenty of time to explain it and probably I think given me written materials to take away with me if I hadn't known all about it already. "Pacing and I'm afraid there's not much more we can do for you" is the most honest and useful answer at this point, and it's possible because that's what I got. Geht doch. (google translator does a terrible job on that - go then? It means "see, it IS possible". One of those things that sounds much better in German).

I agree about treating the symptoms or other abnormalities on their own merits of course.
 

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
One has to wonder just where the reanalysis and the tardy response of NICE leaves practitioners and their patients. There are probably, at this moment, people seeing therapists and who have been told, and who are accepting "treatment" on the basis that, the PACE trial has shown CBT and GET to be effective.

Should not someone be advising clinicians to fully inform patients of the new findings, and to renew consent to proceeding on the basis revealed by the new analysis. Even if such patients are not actively harmed by the process, and there seems a likelihood that some will be, there now seems little good reason for wasting their time and effort. At the very least there is an "opportunity cost".
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
One has to wonder just where the reanalysis and the tardy response of NICE leaves practitioners and their patients. There are probably, at this moment, people seeing therapists and who have been told, and who are accepting "treatment" on the basis that, the PACE trial has shown CBT and GET to be effective.

Should not someone be advising clinicians to fully inform patients of the new findings, and to renew consent to proceeding on the basis revealed by the new analysis. Even if such patients are not actively harmed by the process, and there seems a likelihood that some will be, there now seems little good reason for wasting their time and effort. At the very least there is an "opportunity cost".

I wonder whether there is some way of informing the funders of such ME services, ie presumably the local health trusts, of the revelations about PACE fraud, and suggesting to them that they can save money (which they will like) by axing such services and replacing with good medical differential diagnosis by physician, pacing/rest advice and symptomatic treatment.

The question is who will commissioners of local medical services listen to? Not us, you can be sure.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
The MEA has sent in written submissions to NICE, which not only cover issues relating to CBT, GET and Pacing - but all the other defects in the NICE guideline

Example:

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...nice-mecfs-guideline-on-hold-23-october-2013/

We have also been to meetings with senior representatives from NICE, Professor Mark Baker in particular, where these points have been made face to face

NICE is well aware of the 'patient evidence' relating to CBT, GET and Pacing - as well as all the other criticisms, and now the PACE data re-analysis

For those of us right at the coalface with NICE, this has become a real 'banging your head against a brick wall' situation

But I sense that the PACE trial reanalysis, especially if it can gather growing support from a number of other reputable clinicians and researchers, will now dislodge a few large bricks right at the foundation of this brick wall….
 

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
I hope people appreciate that I am not trying to defend the position being taken by NICE over a revision of the ME/CFS guideline

I'm just trying to explain the various reasons, as have been expressed at meetings with NICE representatives, as to why they take this position

The MEA has not gone down the route of consulting m'learned friends (and spending membership fees on legal fees at at £250 per hour or more) about the situation regarding the PACE trial

In my opinion this would be money down the drain

But there are other areas where a legal opinion might be helpful….

Charles, yes I do appreciate that you aren't trying to defend NICE, and in my couple of comments I've merely been trying to point out how unacceptable the whole NICE/ME issue is.

For years, decades, the ME charities and patients have been battling, battling away but had really limited ability to change things, such is the power of the psychiatrists over the UK medical/political establishment.

But now, with the evidence we have, the charities are in a very much stronger position and I suggest they really need to run with this and in an assertive, polite manner.

The charities need to come together as one with all the evidence and insist NICE take action on this now, not in a years time, now. And if they refuse, which is quite likely, then I suggest a strong, concerted effort by the charities to take up this issue with the Royal Colleges, GMC, government etc.

I know all attempts to get these institutions to take heed of our case have been pretty much in vain for all these years but now, now we are in a much stronger position, the tables are turning, and they need to be very careful of just dismissing our case out of hand or they risk being culpable.

Regarding the legal opinion, even if the legal opinion was that NICE were within their legal rights to continue to disregard the scientific evidence and promote the guidelines as they stand, that would be money well spent, at least we'd know. A negative answer is still a helpful answer. Might it be possible to get some, what is it called, pro bono advice?

Or legal opinion might suggest another avenue which the charities could use to protect their members.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
There is a Forward ME Group meeting at the House of Lords on October 25th where representatives from a number of national ME/CFS charities will be discussing the PACE trial reanalysis and the situation regarding the NICE guideline

I'm sure that all these suggestions and options will be raised and considered during this discussion

When it comes to paying out potentially huge sums of money to m'learned friends, charities have to be very cautious with the way they spend their members money. Spending a large amount of charity funding on a legal action that stood little chance of success, or failed, would not be appreciated by most of our members. And charities also have to follow Charity Commission guidance and rules if they want to go down the the legal action route.

Pro bono advice is another matter but this would have to come from someone who has the right expertise to give provide a free opinion. Not that easy to find but suggestions are welcome…..
 

Daisymay

Senior Member
Messages
754
When it comes to paying out potentially huge sums of money to m'learned friends, charities have to be very cautious with the way they spend their members money. Spending a large amount of charity funding on a legal action that stood little chance of success, or failed, would not be appreciated by most of our members. And charities also have to follow Charity Commission guidance and rules if they want to go down the the legal action route.

Pro bono advice is another matter but this would have to come from someone who has the right expertise to give provide a free opinion. Not that easy to find but suggestions are welcome…..

Charles I'm not and never have suggested MEA take legal action, merely advice.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
And if they refuse, which is quite likely, then I suggest a strong, concerted effort by the charities to take up this issue with the Royal Colleges, GMC, government etc.

I think protests would be effective if they refuse. This is going to be very embarrassing for all involved, the easy way out for NICE is to claim they were duped by pseudoscientific practices from QMUL which were endorsed by the Lancet.


The more attention we can generate the better - no scientist in their right mind would defend PACE now.