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P5P's connection with CBS and MAO-A

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by SuckSmoothie, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    Hi all, I've been a long time lurker and after experimenting for a full year with supplements I thought I had everything figured out, but recently I've been having problems with p5p.

    I've been taking 50mg of p5p in the morning with coffee and l-theanine, and it's given me a massive boost in energy, verbal fluidity and sociability. More recently (past two months) I've been dosing it a second time in the afternoon at 25mg and it immediately leaves me in a spacey haze. I feel mentally slower, brain fog sets in and a general sense of mental fatigue takes over me. I didn't make the connection until I read that p5p might be dangerous for those with CBS and MAO-A mutations, both of which I have. I have also re-introduced guacamole and sour cream into my diet after a while of intolerance.

    Can the P5P be upsetting my CBS and MAO-A mutation? What's the connection between these SNP's and p5p?

    As a side note, I've also started dosing calcium at 1G but it's been giving me depression. A few studies point to how it raises MAO-A within the body but I'm feeling bouts of rage and the typical symptoms of MAO-A deficiency so it might be doing more harm than good. I also have a GAD1 mutation. What's everyone's consensus on dosing calcium?

    Thank you
     
    merylg and ScottTriGuy like this.
  2. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    Hi...

    P5P is need to synthesize serotonin, dopamine and other key neurotransmitters. Lack of P5P is a 'rate limiting factor' that can slow the production of neurochemicals down.

    With the MAO A mutation, mood swings / up and downs are characteristic ... and you can be more sensitive than the average person to drugs and supplements. Small amounts of anything that alters neurochemical production can cause big effects.

    I would take only as much P5P as feels right. Everyone is different. Your body knows. I have gone from large amounts of P5P (150mg per day) down to just a small amount 35mg of B6 from listening to how I feel. And checking my dreams. IF I am having dreams, my levels are probably OK. If Im dreamless, I need to increase B6.

    Some people report trouble supplementing calcium. I had a hard time and got unpleasant side effects - . I personally found out I didn't need calcium, but I needed magnesium (in supplement form) and sometimes more potassium (in foods).
     
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  3. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    Thanks for the reply. I supplement 800mg of magnesium glycinate every night but I haven't touched pottasium yet. I've also steered clear of methylation supps until I fix my CBS and MAO-A issues.

    I've been told magnesium is necessary in the methyl cycle as well as necessary for B6 function. Do you take magnesium at the same time as p5p?
     
  4. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I just get potassium by eating enough vegetables. Food should do it for many people.

    I don't think it's important what time you take the P5P and magnesium. Whatever makes sense or feels best.

    I took P5P to restore my dreams and to reduce insomnia and obsessive thinking. If I am having dreams and not experiencing a 'wired but can't sleep' insomnia and OCD (which I associate with low serotonin) - then I suspect my B6 / P5P status is sufficent.

    I took an OAT -- organic acids test - and it showed my B6 levels as absolute zero. I seemed to have a big deficiency of it for some reason I still have not figured out.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I took good sized doses of p5p for a couple years. Then it became too much, created symptoms. Things shift; sometimes we can pinpoint the reason, sometimes not. My decreased need followed lengthy detox.
     
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  6. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    Where can I order this OAT test? My doctor recommended a methylation blood panel but the company with which I ordered the panel is known for falsifying info (Doctors Data is untrustworthy from what I've read)
     
  7. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    Great Plains Labs. Mine was around $300 and they offer a free 30 minute phone consultation pthe (complex) results... Which can suggest a number of infections, neurotransmitter imbalances, vitamin and methylation issues.

    I went off all supplements and just ate my normal diet for 24 hours before I collected the urine sample for testing.
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    B2 is needed to balance B6.
     
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  9. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    I've always had negative sides with b2. Both FMN and regular b2 caused mental fatigue and slurred speech so I've stayed away from both.
     
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  10. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    Hello all, I've been experimenting for the past few weeks and doing my research on vits and minerals. Maybe someone can chime in on what I've discovered and my theories

    I have a theory that B vits feed candida, and that the by-product of candida, acetaldehyde, causes cognitive symptoms close to those of alcohol consumption (mental fatigue, sluggish coordination, slurred speech). A high carb diet feeds candida as well, and eliminating most carbs helps a few people. (Note: most carbs, not all. Brown rice is tolerated most of the time)

    From experience, I accidentally discovered that p5p worked best for me with a low-carb diet during a weight loss phase. My calories were restricted so my carbs were lower and my healthy fats were higher. I put two and two together after reading about candida and gave a low-carb diet another go.This is all speculation, but I tested it out just this week by eliminating most carbs and I have felt more energetic at the gym and all around sharper and motivated. p5p is a hit or miss at times, but when I'm eating carbs it misses more often.

    I have been trying higher molybdenum for the past two weeks, and it felt great the first week but I'm having a fatigue rebound, I think due to the heavy conversion of sulfites to sulfates or vice versa, (I forgot the mechanism of action of molyb, don't shoot me lol) and I think this is burdening my SUOX (no mutation there, but maybe something is causing a slowdown here)

    I also tried potato starch. It made me feel alert for the first day, then gave me the worst case of painful bloating and diarrhea I have felt in ages. Probably never trying that again

    I have a food intolerance test coming up and a stool test for candida, if I'm right about my theories I should show up with candida. I'll report my results when I recieve them
     
  11. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Your theory sounds very interesting, so what's your results?
     
  12. SuckSmoothie

    SuckSmoothie

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    I've dropped most B vits and focused on rebuilding the gut with N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG) and phospholipids. I've stuck to high dose sodium, B12, folate, biotin, lithium before bed and a small dose of a B1 analogue called allithiamine. I get my other B's through diet and this has worked out for me so far.

    I attribute most of my success with anxiety to NAG and phospholipids. For depression, B12 and Folate have been loyal to me, if i go a week without b12 i feel worn down and depressed. For fatigue, a high sodium diet from Himalayan salts has been a life saver. I suffer from a very low BP and I suspect it has to do with low blood volume, so I started supplementing some electrolytes but only saw real success with sodium. If I feel like I'm fading a little, i drink a cup of water with a dash of Himalayan salt (not table salt) and I'm back on my feet.

    As for lifestyle changes, I'm going to sleep earlier and waking up earlier everyday, I also cut out dopamine spikes (pornography) and I have a strict diet (no sulfites, no dairy, no legumes, no veggies).

    I work out 4 times a week now for an hour and a half and I've put up some impressive numbers on my lifts even by a gym-goer's standards. I'm not 100% there, but I got this far by listening to my body. P5P was more of a miss than a hit. and it plays a delicate role with CBS so I decided to drop it and I've been fine without it.
     
  13. vision blue

    vision blue

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    HI. Calcium could be tricky - if youre low in MAO enzyme then youre high in assorted potential excitotoxins. While more of the work has been done on high glutimate, the catch phrase was that too high level of excitoxin is the gun, but calcium is the trigger. its a bad combo.

    but wanted to ask you more about MAO-A annd about doctors data. I have inferred that i'm low in MAO-A as well. Don't get the rages (am female, which may make a difference), but have high dopamine levels, high tyramine levels and an awful intolerance of tyramine containing foods which give neuro symptoms. Plus had a test which shows that breakdown or dopamine worked just fine on the COMT pathway, but not working much on the MAO pathway.

    so i guess the question is what snps do you have that tell you its low? on the too popular "warrior" snp, i'm heterozygous, but can't imagine that could do that much - alot of people are heterozygous. I thought i had another snp that showed up when i first tested years ago (v2 chip on 23andme) but cannot find that- the snp was dropped for their later V3 chip; do not know about the current v4 chip)

    another relevent MAO comment is that at first i thought ok, i'll do stuff to increase mao-a (would that be b-6 maybe? Would be interested in your thoughts on b 6 in this regard), BUT then read that its through mao a activity that zillions of free radicals are generated and its believed that thats some of the mediator of cell death with high dopamine levels. So was thinking i'd rather get rid of excesses a different way...if i can, and leave that sluggish pathway just as it is...

    I also don't yet know if i have a genetic variant that is giving me the low ;levels and is in turn causing the excesses of dopamine and tyramine, or whether its the reverse - something increasing my dopamine levels (like inflammation) and its just over taxing the mao system.

    ok, now on to Doctors Data - can you please say more on the falsification thing? I've been using them for years, but i've been bugged by a couple of things lately (e.g. they recently seemed to paste in the wrong blurbs on a test result. since they refuse to talk to the patient, they would not listen to me and redo it and the company on the internet i dealt with were so dumb, i mean so dumn like you wouldn't beleive (drugged out? don't know) that I was unable to make headway with them, so am stuck with incorrect blurbs and no way to get the correct ones).

    in terms of other companies falsifications, i've had trouble with labrix. I have no reason to doubt the numbers the machines generate, but i believe they falsify the implications of the data by chaning their reference ranges so that many more people test abnormal.

    How is great plains laboratory and the accuracy and truthfulness front? given my recent troubles with DD and labrix, was thinking of giving them a go, but have not used them in the past. I kow their OAT test is well known.

    if you prefer to discuss anything one on one instead, feel free to message me.
     
  14. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Such a good news! Keep on fighting, and surely you will get there!
    What's your test results?
     
  15. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Your experiences sound interesting. Can you please elaborate your symptoms as well as what to detox?
     
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @jjxx I'm afraid I cannot now remember specifically what symptoms I had at that time. Quite possible it was the group of symptoms that signalled excess sulfur/ammonia, which happened w/ other B vitamins. I've recorded some of my detox experiences in a blog, linked in my signature. In all, I was engaged in detox protocols for much of 4-5 years. I've used many methods and different substances.

    Earlier this year I used the simplest Candida protocol possible, pine oil, AKA turpentine. It worked as well as anything else I've used, was simple and cheap. I was treating for systemic Candida, and eliminating it is the only reason I can find for my increased stamina now.
     
  17. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    B2 is required for the interconversion of 6 B6 forms, among which p5p seems receive a good attention not the other 5?
    I just read a post from @ahmo of her good results with FMN: by reducing catecholamine and histamine. I was enticed by FMN's role in ATP, but not after reading her post. I am low in all catecholamines, and doing the opposite is supposed to be right for me.
     
  18. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Yes, I will check into your posts, which I have been doing. Thanks for putting up such a great pile of information too. Such a good news that you are successful battling candida. You work hard, you deserve it! I may need to re exam candida with more attention again.
     
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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    B6 raises serotonin, and B2 + magnesium are responsible for serotonin breakdown.
     
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Actually anything that fights candida simultaneously raises estrogen, which in its turn modulates the immune system to fight infections (OR via transporting uric acid out of the body rather than getting it accumulating on organs and tissues). I am getting a whole new understanding of hormone roles now from estrogen replacement therapy ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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