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Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

Discussion in 'Gastrointestinal and Urinary' started by Asklipia, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. hixxy

    hixxy Senior Member

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    I have huge oxalate problems and I'm also definitely zinc deficient so I don't think I'll be chelating zinc any time soon.
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Free download:
    Dietary Zinc and Incident Calcium Kidney Stones in Adolescence.

     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am also deficient and increasing it via food and/or supplements seems very problematic for me.
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  5. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I have taken 95mg of zinc orotate (which is equivalent to 29mg of elemental zinc) per day for months. It has had no effect on oxalate stone formation for me.

    I had unexplained prostate pain which went away after I started taken the zinc. Being over 60, I was very likely very deficient in zinc. It is also critical for thymus function. Not enough zinc probably leads to more enlargement of prostate and prostate cancer via zinc deficiency.

    There is a lot of misleading information on zinc and mineral supplementation and not enough information on vitamin C and the oxalates.

    First they will tell you to take x milligrams of zinc but don't say ELEMENTAL ZINC. Zinc orotate is 29% zinc so you have to calculate the real ELEMENTAL amount. I'll bet most people out there are making the same mistake so attempts to cure their deficiency can fail.

    Second they somewhat scare people away from higher dosages. They put max at 40 mg elemental but one can go to much higher dosages. I

    Third as one ages, the zinc levels fall.


    I made a mental mistake in zinc dosing many years ago.

    Any studies which correlate key nutrient to some negative affect I never trust. As years have gone by, that has proven the correct thinking. It should be remembered that these conclusions are based on statistics. There will likely be undetected problems in the body that they aren't.

    I had symptoms of not being able to urinate. I was first thinking I had enlarged prostate etc. I used different things to try to correct it until I realized down the road that it was oxalate formation in bladder that was causing the blockage problem. I detected the crust of oxalate when I stuck one of those bladder drain thingy and felt the crystals. So I just clean my bladder with Chanca Piedra until the blockage is removed. If you go on internet and try to seek solution to problem, nobody mentions this possibility.

    Another area concerning stones is Vitamin C. I don't buy into the idea that it actually causes the stones. Having the oxalate problem, I realized thru experimentation that it likely was not the cause. I think the oxalate problem already formed.

    The biggest problem with high doses of vitamin C is side effects it can create. One should stick with Liposomal Vitamin C (e.g.Spheric Liposomal Vitamin C etc) or ones that are processed by liver because it eliminates side effects. So many big touters of vitamin C seem uninformed about the side effects of plain vitamin C and don't mention the Liposomals.

    There are other forms that are between the plain and liposomal like Pureway and Ester C. People using Ester Vitamin C study found that people urinated 500% LESS oxalates in their urine. Pureway is a slightly better form with lots of studies too but dos not gace a study on oxalates. Ester C has calcium in it so I am careful about anything with calcium. I used to think that Modified Pectin Citrus had vitamin C but it has none.

    One way I test vitamin C and oxalates is that I clean my bladder of oxalates with chanca piedra before hand and then I take the plain vitamin C. I took 20,000 mg within 6 hours and experienced no problem. There is always a chance that plain vitamin C could be a problem but I don't think it is underlying problem but there is a study saying it dumps more oxalates.

    One can have oxalate problems and still take vitamin C. I've had ZERO problems with the kinds processed by the liver like liposomals, ester C and pureway. These will also absorb better into the blood serum and cells than plain vitamin C. I think Liposomals are way better than IV of plain vitamin C so can be used with severe illness like sepsis.

    There are differences of opinion on what constitutes a liposomal so there is some grey area. I have taken many different ones. I can't tell for sure how much difference there is but that is something for you to decide.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    same here... I took tons of zinc.. 100mg a day for a long time ... .it's still low in range on blood testing.

    Been dumping oxolates for about 8 months by supplementing biotin, b6, b1 but then you run into that whole refeeding nightmare. You need cofactor magnesium....so then you supplement magnesium and your sodium goes low.

    Bob Naviaux talked about refeeding IIRC at that Stanford symposium & I got the impression he thought we were screwed... and I'm thinking the same thing.
     
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  7. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    @hixxy how did you figure out your oxolate problem? how is treatment going?
     
  8. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I think the blood serum measurement of zinc is useless. It's how much is getting in the tissues that is important. You should be getting enough sea salt in your diet. It is normal for salt and magnesium to tug at each other.
     
  9. hixxy

    hixxy Senior Member

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    Is there a transcript of what he said about refeeding. Despite being tube fed I seem to have a massive network of deficiencies that if i touch any of them it causes a horrible cascade. The formula doesn't absorb well (I don't even tolerate it really) and it's pretty obvious the protein is degrading rapidly to oxalates. Before I even got on the formula a year ago I had an amino acid analysis done and I was already glycine overloaded so presumably that is where most of my oxalates are coming from.

    I can't supplement basically any minerals of b complex in my current state they all cause really severe symptoms even at tiny doses.

    There's a possibility I might end up on TPN for a while soon and I'm kind of terrified of it given my sensitivity to any level of supplementation and the fact that the doctors who would be administering aren't very experienced with patients like me.
     
  10. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    This reminded me of this paper. There might be something there that could be relevant to you - things to avoid?
     
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Sometimes zinc deficiency has to do with pyroluria. Dog Person talked about zinc in her thread on B2. B2 helps with zinc metabolism. B6 is also deficient in pyroluria. But B2 is needed for proper B6 metabolism. So maybe taking adequate B2, when that level is corrected, start some B6 and zinc.



    I take Mega Food zinc. I cut the tablets into 1/4's, I don't take a lot at a time.
     
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  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I started taking K2 (again) just a couple of days ago, and I do think it's a big answer to the oxalate problem.

    I think it even will chelate calcium deposits out of the gut, especially in the area of the ileocecal valve.

    Mk4 and Mk7 are both okay.

    Thorne makes a liquid, it's probably the best. It seems expensive but each drop is 1mg.

    The capsules, though, might insure that more makes it to the gut, if oxalates actually cause pain in the gut.

    Btw, some say that pyroluria is related to a dysbiosis, and I do believe that. I think oxalate problems might be related to some sort of dysbiosis, too.
     
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  13. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I just want to clarify on elemental Zinc. The way many Zinc forms are listed on label is confusing and not clear all the time. They need to use the word elemental to clarify like say X mg elemental zinc (as zinc orotate). The reason to use orotate is because it has neutral charge and better intracellular absorption. Call manufacture if not label clear. Just a caveat. I used 29% before but that may not be standard.
     

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