The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

Discussion in 'Gastrointestinal and Urinary' started by Asklipia, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I tried it and it seemed to be dead, so I went for locally compounded with living organisms (refrigerated). I am very happy with my probx. A local pharmacy also compounds probx for topical use. Many years ago when I had this problem my GYN recommended applying natural yogurt from the supermarket (Nestle for instance) with a syringe (no needle obviously) rather than prescribing drugs. It worked.
     
  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    @Asklipia and I looked pretty thoroughly and didn't find it anywhere else. There were other Indian pharmacies but they didn't ship internationally. I emailed all the manufacturers and received no reply.

    It was some time ago so possibly a new source has appeared.

    You could try emailing OMSI again asking them to confirm that they have the stock now before you place an order, maybe saying that you know someone else who they said they couldn't supply.

    Unfortunately given my experience, I don't think you could believe the answer.
     
  3. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks Gondwanaland for the info. I thought that the Lactobif worked well before and so will try again. I had stopped it because of a histamine reaction or so I thought at the time.

    I am not at all sure it is a fungal infection as today I had only slight symptoms. Will see how it all plays out and will get using the stuff I used before ie B6, biotin, l-glutamine and some attention to a lower oxalate diet. Perhaps will go back on S. Boulardi although I suspected it was part of the high histamine problem.

    Do you mind telling me what all is in your probiotic? I too was going to try an all Bifido combo but will rethink that one. I want to find probiotics that lower histamine.
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    The combo I like best is L. rhamnosus, L. casei (histaminogenic), B. bifidum 1 billion each + 150mg FOS. I get plenty of GABA from rhamnosus (great sleep) and enough histamine from casei to get up in the morning with relatively good disposition. I feel the need to cycle this one because rhamnosus seems to outcrowd everything else and gut motility stops.

    My husband gets a headache from this one. For him the combo L. rhamnosus, L. casei, L. acidophilus 0.5 billion each no FOS works wonderfully for mood, but worsens his insomnia.

    I have also been getting good results from L. helveticus/L. casei/ B. longum/L. lactis 0.5 bi each.

    Both DH and I got joint pain from L. plantarum/L .casei/B. breve/B. infantis 0.5 bi each - main suspects are breve / infantis.

    I make yogurt with S. thermophilus, L. casei, B. lactis. Gotta eat small amounts - it's the kind of histamine that can potentially cause depression.

    Yes I add L. casei to everything, I think it improves my disposition.

    Additionally grass fed milk (A2 casein) is doing something good too. I feel the K2 in it, it's very gentle.
     
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  5. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Many thanks Gondwanaland. You are a fountain of information! However, I see that probiotics (like most else) are very individual. Very interesting the effects that the probiotics are having on you and your husband.

    Interesting about L. casei. I think I need some!!! I have a casein allergy but apparently L. casei helps with that.

    You say that you feel the K2 in the grass fed milk. What effect are you feeling?

    Can you tell me how you go about testing the effects of the probiotics? All individually? How many days on each? What time of day do you take them? Some, I expect, are in a yogurt?

    Thanks again. Oci
     
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    After my 1st dose of milk my corneal "herpes" bothered me horribly. Then 24h later it just all of a sudden stopped hurting. I think the big oxalate crystal that was deposited in my scratched cornea has been disposed of by the K2. Also I had a curve of worsening and then improving joint pain that I think is from the K2 action in my body. I think soon I might try a small dose of K2-MK4 supp again :cautious:
    I take probx on an empty stomach 1st thing in the morning every other day. I don't take single strains. I deduce the effects from reading scientific studies (e.g.)
    Yogurt as described above, 1 Tbsp in the afternoon.
     
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  7. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Hi Gondwanaland. Your story of the eye crystal is very impressive indeed. Good to know about the curve - worsening before improving. You have inspired me to learn much more about probx. I see from the article how very important they are. Many many thanks! Oci
     
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  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    There is a lot of info on single strains at selfhacked.com
    You are welcome!
     
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  9. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks @Gondwanaland, I will check them out. I like the guy at selfhacked and have a lot marked to read later! I'm really struggling just now (last 2 weeks in particular) with migraine, oxalates? digestive problems, itchy eyes etc. Not sure of causes but likely several factors. Urrrggghhh! I think histamines are likely a big part.
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  11. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks @Gondwanaland. I think now that I am dealing with both oxalates and high histamine with possibly some Candida too. I think I will reread this thread as I have forgotten a lot about managing oxalates.
     
  12. hixxy

    hixxy Senior Member

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    I wonder how this might tie in with our oxalate problems?

    Inflammation causes tissue-specific depletion of vitamin B6
    • En-Pei Chiang,
    • Donald E Smith,
    • Jacob Selhub,
    • Gerard Dallal,
    • Yi-Cheng Wang and
    • Ronenn Roubenoff
    Arthritis Research & Therapy 20057:R1254
    DOI: 10.1186/ar1821

    © Chiang et al.; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. 2005

    Received: 4 May 2005
    Accepted: 15 August 2005
    Published: 13 September 2005

    Abstract
    Previously we observed strong and consistent associations between vitamin B6 status and several indicators of inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Clinical indicators, including the disability score, the length of morning stiffness, and the degree of pain, and biochemical markers, including the erythrocyte sedimentation rate and C-reactive protein levels, were found to be inversely correlated with circulating vitamin B6 levels. Such strong associations imply that impaired vitamin B6status in these patients results from inflammation. In the present study we examined whether inflammation directly alters vitamin B6 tissue contents and its excretion in vivo. A cross-sectional case-controlled human clinical trial was performed in parallel with experiments in an animal model of inflammation. Plasma and erythrocyte and pyridoxal 5'-phosphate concentrations, urinary 4-pyridoxic acid excretion, and the activity coefficient of erythrocyte aspartate aminotransferase were compared between patients and healthy subjects. Adjuvant arthritis was induced in rats for investigating hepatic and muscle contents as well as the urinary excretion of vitamin B6 during acute and chronic inflammation. Patients with rheumatoid arthritis had low plasma pyridoxal 5'-phosphate compared with healthy control subjects, but normal erythrocyte pyridoxal 5'-phosphate and urinary 4-pyridoxic acid excretion. Adjuvant arthritis in rats did not affect 4-pyridoxic acid excretion or muscle storage of pyridoxal 5'-phosphate, but it resulted in significantly lower pyridoxal 5'-phosphate levels in circulation and in liver during inflammation. Inflammation induced a tissue-specific depletion of vitamin B6. The low plasma pyridoxal 5'-phosphate levels seen in inflammation are unlikely to be due to insufficient intake or excessive vitamin B6 excretion. Possible causes of decreased levels of vitamin B6 are discussed.

    https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/ar1821
     
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  13. Paralee

    Paralee Senior Member

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    Really interesting. I guess maybe a genetic component involved (IL-6)?

    The joint, muscle pain, etc. that I'm experiencing was from high B6. I have been wondering if that had to do with an interleukin or some other variable.
     
  14. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    We know that prolonged oxidative stress causes a functional B6 deficiency now we learn that inflammation depletes P5P.

    So it doesn't seem surprising that some of us have developed problems with oxalates.
     
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  15. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    How much B6 (P5P) do you all take? Also B2? Perhaps B1? Thanks.
     
  16. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    When I was more aggressively trying to get on top of oxalates I was taking 50 mg P5P (swallowed) and 200 mg pyridoxal (in divided doses), 50 mg allithiamine, 50 mg riboflavin and 20 mg biotin (and various doses of the others Bs).

    I cut back on the B6 and biotin when I seemed to have oxalates under control - to 50 mg pyridoxal and 1 mg resp but more recently I have been experimenting with sublingual P5P and R5P. They definitely have a better effect for me and currently I am taking 2-4 X 25 mg of both forms daily (still experimenting with dose, not oxalate related).

    I have recently come to realise that I need high doses of biotin - have gone up to 50 mg, but that is also another story.
     
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  17. Oci

    Oci Senior Member

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    Thanks Alicec, This is very helpful. I had another bout of what appears to have been oxalate dumping but seems pretty well under control now. I had stopped biotin and the probiotic Lactobif which supposedly degrades oxalates.

    So now I am taking 10,000 mcg Biotin again and the Lactobif. I have stopped eating a few of the highest oxalates too and problem now seems under control for the moment. However I still have very itchy eyes and floaters that may still be oxalates. I think I need the Biotin to manage candida...very low on last DD Microbiology Profile but a chronic problem.

    I am taking 100 mg P5P as well as 100 mg B2 (just the regular). Probably I should make it R5P? It seems to me that there is some advantage to taking a combination of P5P and pyridoxal but don't know what. I suspect that I should add thiamine to the mix too.

    I'm interesting in the sublingual forms of P5P and R5P that you are taking. What brand? Many thanks for all the information you give us! Oci

    I just corrected...100 mg P5P, not 10
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I take 10 mg Biotin, 50 mg P5P, 18 mg B2, as well as one or two Alinamin EX plus.
    This not really everyday, more like 4 days a week.

    And my probiotics, every day.
    Everything fine now, only some slight dumping from time to time, which I would not notice if I had not suffered a strong dumping episode lasting about 6 months a year or two ago. Now I know what this is, of course I notice it, even if it is slight.
    Be well!
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    My current personal concern is that exactly these vitamins may suppress estrogen too much and creat uric acid issues which are synergistic with oxalates - i.e. it is much worse to ingest oxalates with high uric acid - too much acidity for the kidneys without the support of estrogen:
     
  20. hixxy

    hixxy Senior Member

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