Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[alicec]

Do you think it is possible that this probiotic induces endogenous oxalate formation in erythrocytes rather than anything else?

No, quite the contrary. O. formigenes in the gut stimulates oxalate transporters in the gut wall, encouraging the body to transfer oxalate into the gut. Thus the bacterium gets a feed and our oxalate stores are diminished.

I wasn't aware of erythrocyte synthesis of oxalate but it doesn't seem to be anything special. Yet another place where things can go wrong but secondary to the main site of synthesis in the liver and using the same mechanisms.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wasn't aware of erythrocyte synthesis of oxalate but it doesn't seem to be anything special. Yet another place where things can go wrong but secondary to the main site of synthesis in the liver and using the same mechanisms.

I think that I experienced RBC endogenous synthesis induced by C. butyricum because I wasn't supplementing B vits at the time I took it and was anemic.

 

[Oci]

Use pharmaceutical grade Epsom salts (the cruder stuff might be ok dissolved in a large bathful of water but I don't fancy the concentrated impurities on my skin).

Thanks @alicec. Now I just need to find a good source in Canada. I'd hate to pay for shipping from the US!

 

[Violeta]

Just to clarify; from wikipedia:



Note above that beta-alanine can also activate GlyRs, perhaps this could explain the tingling people report. I doubt it has anything to do with oxalate.

Wow, what an interesting piece of information!

I'm going to copy and paste this from Adreno's post as it is an important part.

The glycine receptor, or GlyR, is the receptor for the amino acidneurotransmitterglycine. GlyR is anionotropic receptor that produces its effects through chloride current. It is one of the most widely distributed inhibitory receptors in the central nervous system and has important roles in a variety of physiological processes, especially in mediating inhibitory neurotransmission in the spinal cord andbrainstem.[1]

The receptor can be activated by a range of simple amino acids including glycine, β-alanine andtaurine, and can be selectively blocked by the high-affinity competitive antagonist strychnine.[2]Caffeine is a competitive antagonist of GlyR.[3]

It made me wonder if the tingle from the beta -alanine at the GlyR site maybe had something to do with copper radicals and I found this. The Cu2+ inhibits the Cl- current.

Binding-site mutations in the alpha1 subunit of the inhibitory glycine receptor convert the inhibitory metal ion Cu2+ into a positive modulator.



Abstract
The divalent cation copper (Cu2+) has been shown to inhibit chloride currents mediated by the inhibitory glycine receptor (GlyR). Here, we analyzed Cu2+ inhibition of homo- and hetero-oligomeric GlyRs expressed in Xenopus oocytes. No significant differences in Cu2+ inhibitory potency were found between alpha1, alpha2 and alpha3 GlyRs as well as heteromeric alpha1beta receptors. Furthermore, GlyR alpha1 mutations known to reduce inhibition or potentiation of GlyR currents by Zn2+ had no effect on Cu2+ inhibition. However, Cu2+ was found to competitively antagonize glycine binding, suggesting that Cu2+ binds at the agonist-binding site.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18793654

 

[Gondwanaland]

Could someone please break down this info a bit?

 

[Violeta]

The glycine receptor, or GlyR, is the receptor for the amino acidneurotransmitterglycine. GlyR is anionotropic receptor that produces its effects through chloride current. It is one of the most widely distributed inhibitory receptors in the central nervous system and has important roles in a variety of physiological processes, especially in mediating inhibitory neurotransmission in the spinal cord andbrainstem.[1]

The receptor can be activated by a range of simple amino acids including glycine, β-alanine andtaurine, and can be selectively blocked by the high-affinity competitive antagonist strychnine.[2]Caffeine is a competitive antagonist of GlyR.[3]

How does GABA tie in to this?

 

[Violeta]

So would I.
I would not be surprised if blurry vision/cataracts/myopia were correlated to oxalate problems. Maybe a way to improve eyesight?

Here's a study that shows that amount of copper ions is higher in the lens of people with cataracts.

I putting this here because of wondering what the relationship between copper ions and oxalates might be. IDK, but if anyone does, I would appreciate the information. Thanks.


Peroxidation and subsequent reduction in superoxide dismutase.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9243308

Pathophysiology of cataracts: copper ion and peroxidation in diabetics.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I putting this here because of wondering what the relationship between copper ions and oxalates might be. IDK, but if anyone does, I would appreciate the information. Thanks.

I think the link is if you don't have enough B6 copper and zinc metabolism will be impaired, as another side-effect from low B6 you have endogenous oxalate production, so unbound copper and high oxalates will follow.

 

[Violeta]

I think the link is if you don't have enough B6 copper and zinc metabolism will be impaired, as another side-effect from low B6 you have endogenous oxalate production, so unbound copper and high oxalates will follow.

Thank you, @Gondwanaland! That made me remember that people who get a gastric bypass will very quickly get not only hyperoxaluria but also copper toxic.

 

[alicec]

Just an update on the Oxalobact.

I've been taking 2 per day for several months. I had the impression that intermittent intake might be better at provoking dumping, though I can't be sure about that. It just seemed that when I stopped for several days in preparation for a uBiome test, I started dumping soon after starting again.

Towards the end of this time, however, I wasn't dumping oxalates at all.

I have used up my supply so I decided I would have a break before ordering more.

In the meantime I have had a couple of uBiome tests and an OAT.

No O. formigenes has been detected in my gut though it is possible that it is present at very low level. I am not particularly concerned about this. It is normally only a low level gut inhabitant and getting something to colonise into an established gut is probably not an easy thing, plus the dose in the capsules is relatively low. It might take longer or need a much higher dose.

In any case, my OAT suggests that just transiting the probiotic through the gut has done something.

I've had the best oxalate markers ever. All three are very low - glyceric and oxalic low normal, glycolic below normal.

I am delighted. Of course I don't know that it wouldn't have happened anyhow, but it seems more than a coincidence to me that this result should follow several months of the probiotic. Nothing else has changed and these dietary and supplement measures didn't achieve such good results in the past.

So I'll order more and will probably take it intermittently.

 

[Asklipia]

@alicec
Thank you for the update. Such good news! I am so happy for you.
We haven't had any tests done. But noticed the same thing you did : dumping when starting Oxalobact again after a week or so of not taking any. Dumping now is very rare and does not last for more than a week or so.
We certainly had an oxalate problem, and it seems very much improved.
In fact everything seems very much improved. I would never even think we had a chronic problem. In fact nothing points to anything really wrong.
We only took one a day but last month we upped it to two. I suspect they might be starting to be too old?

The oxalate problem seems to have disappeared. But at the same time as Oxalobact we also take handfuls of various probiotics. Some of which triggered dumping in the past. Now nothing happens.
Something has been fixed.
And I suspect a lot more is happening quietly. Perfect nails, thick fast growing hair.
The strange thing is, now when in presence of someone who is sick, I get very dark moods, which I have identified as an attack on my immune system. I actually feel in my mind that something is trying to invade me. It gives me a kind of cold black anger, extremely mental. And after a couple of days it disappears and I did not catch their flu/cold/whatever virus.
The mental part is strange. This is not emotional anger. Rather a murderous cold blood feeling.

Our thoughts are not our own. I now realize this.
Good luck to all!

OXALOBACT ZINDABAD!!

Asklipia

 

[Violeta]

Some additional information about endogenous oxalate production.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/au/2012/819202/

Glyoxal can be formed through various pathways as illustrated in Figure 1. It is created directly from glucose via retroaldol condensation, and it is formed indirectly from glucose via a glycoaldehyde intermediate that undergoes autoxidation. The autoxidation reaction is promoted by the presence of phosphate buffer and trace metal ions (Fe3+ and Cu2+) in solution. The latter was indirectly demonstrated by a reduction of glycoaldehyde autoxidation by the presence of the trace metal ion chelator diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid [10]

And this, which indicates that chelating Cu2+ and Fe3+ is a protective mechanism, seeming to mean, free radicals and poor antioxidant status is NOT GOOD. "In addition, Shangari et al. found that the extent of cellular damage caused by glyoxal accumulation in hepatocytes could be decreased by the use of glyoxal “traps,” including d-penicillamine, aminoguanidine, arginine, cysteine, and pyridoximine. They also prevented GSH depletion and lipid peroxidation from occurring. Thiamine deficiency also increases hepatocytes susceptibility to glyoxal toxicity [21]. These studies demonstrate that glyoxal metabolism and its toxicity are complex, and further research is required to resolve the mechanisms involved.

Edited to add in: " Mounting evidence is also suggesting that both glyoxal production and oxalate synthesis can be associated with oxidative stress."

 

[Violeta]

Another link about oxalates with respect to thiamine deficiency.

http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/content/31/6/1390.abstract

 

[Violeta]

It appears that glutathione may help reverse oxalate issues by detoxification of a substrate of endogenous production.

"Glutathione is also needed for the detoxification of methylglyoxal, a toxin produced as a byproduct of metabolism.

This detoxification reaction is carried out by the glyoxalase system. Glyoxalase I (EC 4.4.1.5) catalyzes the conversion of methylglyoxal and reduced glutathione to S-D-lactoyl-glutathione. Glyoxalase II (EC 3.1.2.6) catalyzes the hydrolysis of S-D-lactoyl-glutathione to glutathione and D-lactic acid.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another link about oxalates with respect to thiamine deficiency.

http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/content/31/6/1390.abstract

Hyperglycemia, hyperinsulinemia /insulin resistance, anemia and poor thyroid function seem to be the pillars of oxalate problems.
From the same paper:

We found that glyoxal (10 μM) markedly increased the susceptibility of hepatocyte glutathione (GSH) to oxidation by hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) and markedly increased cytotoxicity by compromising the cellular antioxidant enzyme system.

Whenever you have H2O2 problems, thyroid is involved.

 

[Asklipia]

About oxalate degrading bacteria

The best Bifido strain is B.lactis BL-07. B. lactis BL-04 and B. breve BB-03 and B. longum BL-05 have lesser oxalate degrading capacity. These are just the ones that have been tested, others may do it too.
I haven't searched for Bifido only preparations that might be suitable but if you could find one heavy in B.lactis BL-07 that might be a solution.

I have ordered this Probactiol Bifidus 60 (bi-07 only) and received it a few days ago.
It does induce a small dumping event which is unpleasant but not horrible and resolves after a few hours.

Also I have noticed by chance that I can completely eliminate these symptoms by eating half a fresh pineapple.
Done this three times in a row and it worked each time.
Not related to eating a fresh fruit as nice tart apples don't do the job.

 

[alicec]

I have ordered this Probactiol Bifidus 60 (bi-07 only) and received it a few days ago.
It does induce a small dumping event which is unpleasant but not horrible and resolves after a few hours.

Thanks for that info. I have found it in Australia - on order - will report when I have a chance to try it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Useful study about oxalate content in Indian spices.

 

[Asklipia]

Useful study about oxalate content in Indian spices.

Great find! Thanks!

 

[alicec]

Useful study about oxalate content in Indian spices.

I'm very sorry to see cardamom go from what I thought was relatively low to among the highest and of the worst kind - ie largely soluble. I've been using it liberally in some dishes!

Pleased to see cinnamon, nutmeg, caraway, which are among my favourites, have little soluble oxalates.

Dried ginger doesn't look so good but I think the fresh stuff is much lower (well I hope that figure is correct - I use this liberally also) - and has a nicer taste.