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Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
The glyoxylate cycle is a truncated Kreb's cycle - see here. It is not the source of endogenous oxalate production though could contribute to it. If there are problems with malate synthase within the cycle, then glyoxylate could accumulate. This in turn could be converted to oxalate.

The pathway for endogenous oxalate production is shown here and discussed here and here

Okay, so according to this study, when phagocytosis of candida causes the enzymes for glyoxalate production.

From the study:

"In C. albicans, phagocytosis also upregulates the principal enzymes of the glyoxylatecycle, isocitrate lyase (ICL1) and malate synthase (MLS1)."

Would that mean that if your body doesn't have the immune system able to kill candida, it wouldn't cause problems and you wouldn't have endogenous oxalate problems?
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Would that mean that if your body doesn't have the immune system able to kill candida, it wouldn't cause problems and you wouldn't have endogenous oxalate problems?

No. If you didn't have the immune system to kill candida you could end up with life threatening systemic candidiasis as often happens with immunocompromised patients. That would certainly be a problem.

As for endogenous oxalate production I don't follow the link to the studies you cite. These are characterising the techniques that Candida uses to survive attack by the host immune system. One is induction of the glyoxalate cycle as an alternative energy system.

This is going on within Candida cells in the host gut. Oxalate is not generated - the yeast is revving up this cycle to give itself additional energy substrates.

Endogenous (host) oxalate production is happening in the peroxisome and then cytosol of host cells - mainly in the liver I think. The mechanism is shown in the links I gave previously.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
I wonder if thiamine deficiency would be an important factor with dumping oxalates.
I have recently started supplementing with TTPD (Allithiamine) and it has stopped immediately a vigorous bout of oxalate dumping dead in it tracks.
Or maybe it is the other way around and oxalate dumping induces a thiamin deficiency ?

It was something I had considered a few years ago and I had tried thiamin HCL and I found it too stressful, giving me in a manic kind of energy, so I never tried it again. But TTPD is completely different. It gives me enrgy and relaxes at the same time. Maybe I am now ready for it after all these probiotics?
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Or maybe it is the other way around and oxalate dumping induces a thiamin deficiency ?

Well oxalate accumulation can induce a functional thiamine deficiency. In other words, thiamine dependant enzymes can get messed up by oxalate. Thiamine supplementation is one of the recommendations to help cope with the ill effects of oxalates and allithiamine is the form Susan Owens recommends.

Don't know about a link with dumping.

Allithiamine crosses the BBB and because it is fat soluble, seems to be absorbed gradually and stick around for a long time. Maybe this is why it has a more gentle effect on your nervous system.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
No. If you didn't have the immune system to kill candida you could end up with life threatening systemic candidiasis as often happens with immunocompromised patients. That would certainly be a problem.

As for endogenous oxalate production I don't follow the link to the studies you cite. These are characterising the techniques that Candida uses to survive attack by the host immune system. One is induction of the glyoxalate cycle as an alternative energy system.

This is going on within Candida cells in the host gut. Oxalate is not generated - the yeast is revving up this cycle to give itself additional energy substrates.

Endogenous (host) oxalate production is happening in the peroxisome and then cytosol of host cells - mainly in the liver I think. The mechanism is shown in the links I gave previously.

I certainly do understand that one should not work on reversing candida infection. But the article clearly does state that "In C. albicans, phagocytosis also upregulates the principal enzymes of the glyoxylatecycle, isocitrate lyase (ICL1) and malate synthase (MLS1)."

And these are the enzymes shown as the human glyoxalate pathway.

This also brings to mind that Susan Owens suggests that if you lower oxalates and still aren't getting good improvement, try biotin. Biotin is known to reverse candida infection. So if biotin reverses candida infection by killing candida, it wouldn't be good for reversing oxalate issues. But Susan Owens says it's good for oxalate problems.

It seems that somewhere there is a mix up in information.

Or should I say those two thoughts don't seem to go together.
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Maybe allithiamine competes somehow with something that precipitates dumping?

Maybe, or maybe there is some indirect connection between the various pathways affected by oxalate so that repleting one benefits the others. Biotin can precipitate dumping and it falls into the same category as thiamine - ie a cofactor in a pathway that is collateral damage to oxalate accumulation.

Maybe someone has studied this but I haven't really been keeping up with much oxalate stuff.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
these are the enzymes shown as the human glyoxalate pathway.

Yes but so what.

Induction of these enzymes ensures that the glyoxalate cycle proceeds. The yeast is deliberately inducing them so it can use this cycle as a growth advantage.

THE GLYOXYLATE CYCLE IS NOT THE MECHANISM FOR OXALATE ACCUMULATION.

Again see links above.

It seems that somewhere there is a mix up in information.

Or maybe you are mixed up in trying to find obscure links which don't exist.

There are indeed several possible link between candida metabolites and oxalate accumulation. These could feed into the host pathway discussed in the links I gave you, WHICH I REPEAT IS NOT THE GLYOXYLATE CYCLE.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
The glyoxylate cycle is a truncated Kreb's cycle - see here. It is not the source of endogenous oxalate production though could contribute to it. If there are problems with malate synthase within the cycle, then glyoxylate could accumulate. This in turn could be converted to oxalate.

Well, you did say it could be one of the ways that oxalates accumulate.

And you said it again in one of those links you provided.

"Malate synthase requires acetyl CoA, so if there are problems supplying this, glyoxylate can accumulate in the peroxisome. Here it may be converted to oxalate by glycollate oxidase or it might travel into the cytosol and be converted by LDH"
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Well, you did say it could be one of the ways that oxalates accumulate.

And you said it again in one of those links you provided.

"Malate synthase requires acetyl CoA, so if there are problems supplying this, glyoxylate can accumulate in the peroxisome. Here it may be converted to oxalate by glycollate oxidase or it might travel into the cytosol and be converted by LDH"

Yes I said it could contribute through accumulation of glyoxylate. This in turn could feed into the pathway which does lead to oxalate formation. This process would be going on in the host peroxisome.

This has nothing to do with induction of the glyoxylate cycle in a gut yeast for use as an energy source. Glyoxylate would not be accumulating there since the yeast is inducing the enzymes it needs to rev up the pathway. Even if glyoxylate did accumulate, this still has nothing to do with host endogenous oxalate production which is going on in the host liver.

EDIT to add
Maybe the key concept you are missing is that even if a blockage in the glyoxylate cycle were leading to glyoxylate accumulation in liver peroxisomes, this would only be an issue if there were problems with the AGxT enzyme. It is the latter which sets in train endogenous oxalate production.

Thus the glyoxylate cycle MAY be a contributor to endogenous oxalate production, it is not the cause.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
Yes I said it could contribute through accumulation of glyoxylate. This in turn could feed into the pathway which does lead to oxalate formation. This process would be going on in the host peroxisome.

This has nothing to do with induction of the glyoxylate cycle in a gut yeast for use as an energy source. Glyoxylate would not be accumulating there since the yeast is inducing the enzymes it needs to rev up the pathway. Even if glyoxylate did accumulate, this still has nothing to do with host endogenous oxalate production which is going on in the host liver.

EDIT to add
Maybe the key concept you are missing is that even if a blockage in the glyoxylate cycle were leading to glyoxylate accumulation in liver peroxisomes, this would only be an issue if there were problems with the AGxT enzyme. It is the latter which sets in train endogenous oxalate production.

Thus the glyoxylate cycle MAY be a contributor to endogenous oxalate production, it is not the cause.

I think we are talking about two different things. Thanks, I think I found out what I needed.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
I was reading this study
Effect of sex hormones on oxalate-synthesizing enzymes in male and female rat livers

then I looked up glycolate oxidase on wikipedia:

then I looked up glyoxylate and dicarboxylate metabolism:

I barely understood anything, but I thought someone could extract the meaning out of it.

If I understand at least a little of it, B2 (FMN) has a role on it all, but it is not recommended in the oxalate lowering lists of supplements.

If what I am wondering about oxalates actually being produced by candida, I think I just read why the B2 would be helpful in resolving the issue.

Oxidative stress actually causes candida to go into it's fungal mode and be resistant to the immune system. And of course, B2 plays a huge role in relieving oxidative stress. Let me get the link.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10529105
The expression of the pathogenic yeast Candida albicans catalase gene in response to hydrogen peroxide.
ps: not expressed with glucose???
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
Here is a possible explanation of production of oxalates in humans.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC126751/

Life and Death in a Macrophage: Role of the Glyoxylate Cycle in Virulence

Although the outcomes of this macrophage capture are quite different among the three microbes (candida a., mycoplasma t., s. cerevesiae), the initial responses of all three to the internal environment are remarkably similar: induction of the glyoxylate cycle.


 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
From Susan Owens: "Brenda, the database scientists use to study enzymes does not seem to have any mammals with either glyoxylate cycle enzyme. Perhaps the debate is over."
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
So far I have looked at citation # 8, and it is talking about the glyoxylate synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9783918

Glyoxylate synthesis, and its modulation and influence on oxalate synthesis

This is the title of the second citation, and it doesn't seem to mention how humans convert vitamin c to oxalates. PS: I'm not saying that's not possible.

Vitamin C. Biosynthesis, recycling and degradation in mammals


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17222174
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,945
So far I have looked at citation # 8, and it is talking about the glyoxylate synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9783918

Glyoxylate synthesis, and its modulation and influence on oxalate synthesis

You know how it says this..."Oxalate synthesis is a minor, secondary reaction of a cascade of reactions termed the glyoxylate pathway" in the study?

That's the pathway that Susan Owens just found out several days ago does not exist in humans, according to Brenda, a human genome listing.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
have you seen that?:


he talkes about calcium is needed to bind oxalates. before that I never understood why calcium deficiency may cause kidney stones.

I am taking a look at the studies mentioned in the video, and would like to know what @Violeta @Asklipia @alicec think about this stuff...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=pmc3165904
Studies on a unique organelle localization of a liver enzyme, serine: pyruvate (or alanine:glyoxylate) aminotransferase.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=12110000
Potential mechanisms of marked hyperoxaluria not due to primary hyperoxaluria I or II.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25525609
Glyoxylate, a new marker metabolite of type 2 diabetes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=18523430
Oxalate in renal stone disease: the terminal metabolite that just won't go away.
 
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