• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Does anyone know about a connection between oxalate and anemia? They seem pretty much intertwined to me.
 
Last edited:
Asklipia

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
If I understand it properly, oxalates insert themselves next to biotin in the active site of carboxylase enzymes and shut them down.
One of the consequences would be that oxalate dumping may bring acute biotin deficiency symptoms.

Now this seems to have happened to me and to my husband. For the last ten days we have been heavily dumping AND getting some signs of biotin deficiency, one of those being the apparition of milia around the eyes.
I cannot help but notice the similarity of milia with the little balls of palmoplantar pustulosis.

And guess what? A Japanese doctor, Dr Masaru Maebashi, is treating PPP with biotin AND Miyarisan.
Discussed at length here.

He says he is using Clostridium butyricum because Lactobacilli eat up all the biotin.
Maybe Lactobacilli eat up the biotin AND cannot compete with whichever bacteria are the problem with us.
Because I think Clotridium butyricum eats up biotin too! But it competes with the culprit (which may or not be Clostridium difficile).
@Gondwanaland , @alicec and others what do you think?
 
Last edited:
A

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Asklipia said:
One of the consequences would be that oxalate dumping may bring acute biotin deficiency symptoms.
Click to expand...

I think it's oxalate accumulation rather than dumping which causes the functional biotin deficiency. Having an oxalate molecule lodged near the active site of the carboxylase enzyme prevents the biotin co-factor from doing its job of physically transferring the carboxyl group from substrate to product. It is the same effect as not having enough biotin.

I can't see how dumping of oxalate would affect biotin - the two don't actually interact.

However there's no reason that you and your husband haven't been through a period of oxalate accumulation which has resulted in appearance of biotin deficiency signs. It is certainly interesting that they manifested themselves at the same time as a dumping episode but that timing could be co-incidental.

Asklipia said:
one of those being the apparition of milia around the eyes.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough I have been wondering about a couple of milia which have appeared around my eyes in the last month or so - didn't realise that this was a biotin deficiency sign. I have been taking 20 mg biotin daily for about 18 months. This has normalised all the biotin markers on OATs so hadn't bothered to go any higher - maybe I need a bit more.

Asklipia said:
A Japanese doctor, Dr Masaru Maebashi, is treating PPP with biotin AND Miyarisan.
Click to expand...
Asklipia said:
He says he is using Clostridium butyricum because Lactobacilli eat up all the biotin.
Click to expand...

You do find the most interesting studies. If PPP is a type of psoriasis which is an autoimmune condition, I wonder if biotin has a wider role in immune system regulation or if it is peculiar to this condition.

Asklipia said:
Maybe Lactobacilli eat up the biotin AND cannot compete with whichever bacteria are the problem with us.
Because I think Clotridium butyricum eats up biotin too! But it competes with the culprit (which may or not be Clostridium difficile).
Click to expand...

And you do come up with the most thought-provoking hypotheses - thank you. So some biotin supplementation might be in order for people who are taking C. butyricum, especially if they suspect oxalate problems.
 
A

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Gondwanaland said:
Can we consider the possibility that some of the oxalate being dumped gets reabsorbed and steals the place of biotin?
Click to expand...

There are mechanisms to prevent such wasteful cycling. Oxalate doesn't get dumped unless the body senses that oxalate degrading bacteria are in the gut. Who knows how efficient this is however.

I think it is simplest to just realise that any process that allows oxalate to accumulate in the body may lead to a functional biotin deficiency. @Asklipia has raised the possibility that this could be exacerbated by certain gut bacteria which may consume biotin.
 
O

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Several years ago I had a Metametrix ION profile test done and it showed high B-Hydroxyisovalerate which apparently means a biotin deficiency. I have been reluctant to supplement biotin, however, as I tend to have problems with candida. I have read that biotin can feed candida. Have any of you made this connection?

I also wonder what the connection between oxalates and candida is? Especially for someone like me who has various times tested 2+ or 4+ on CDSA tests.

I never know whether to blame oxalates or candida! I will probably do the OAT test at some point but would like to be stable on supps at the time. Tests are $$$.
 
A

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Oci said:
I have read that biotin can feed candida
Click to expand...

Susan Owens thinks the opposite. Biotin supplementation is highly recommended on the lo-ox site both as a counter to the detrimental effect of oxalates on biotin dependant enzymes and as a counter to the candida overgrowth which seems common in autistic children.

There is the additional wrinkle that the candida product arabinose appears to be a precursor to oxalate.
 
O

Oci

Senior Member
Messages
261
Thanks alicec. I'm going to give it a try. I really do need to do the OAT test and see what's what!
 
Asklipia

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
alicec said:
You do find the most interesting studies…. And you do come up with the most thought-provoking hypotheses
Click to expand...
Thank you so much @alicec for a detailed answer, I really need you and the others :hug:to help me think. Unfortunately my scientific background is nil, all I have is this curious mind, a beautiful playful structuralist mind unencumbered by learning and free to consider the unorthodox. Somehow my computer (or the AI behind the searches) senses it and is not shy to throw at me these unusual results on the first page always! My husband does not get this on his computer!
I realize that if you are not feeling well, showering you with crazy hypotheses might be a strain. Please forgive my enthusiasm all of you.

alicec said:
So some biotin supplementation might be in order for people who are taking C. butyricum, especially if they suspect oxalate problems.
Click to expand...
In view of the milia and the oxalate dumping, I would agree. Oxalate dumping is no fun.

alicec said:
There are mechanisms to prevent such wasteful cycling (as oxalate reabsorption). Oxalate doesn't get dumped unless the body senses that oxalate degrading bacteria are in the gut. Who knows how efficient this is however.
Click to expand...
If only this was true! I have to think this over. My hypothesis was that Vitamin K / butyrate / folate regulates the accumulation and dumping of oxalates. This would nicely fit with what happened to us (C. butyricum leading to oxalate dumping) and what seem to happen to the patients of the Portuguese doctor @Gondwanaland mentioned :
Gondwanaland said:
I have just read somethin on a blog of a Portuguese doctor (haven't checked it elsewhere) that is relevant for people following oxalate protocol: The association of high dose biotin + thiamine + vitamin K can induce anaphylaxis
Click to expand...
Maybe by anaphylaxis he means that good old terrible burning alive feeling that comes with oxalate dumping?
It looks like what happened to us = if you replace thiamin by sulphur and Vitamin K by Clostridium butyricum.

alicec said:
I think it is simplest to just realise that any process that allows oxalate to accumulate in the body may lead to a functional biotin deficiency. @Asklipia has raised the possibility that this could be exacerbated by certain gut bacteria which may consume biotin.
Click to expand...
It might well be a three dimensional thing : oxalate - vitamin K - biotin.

If that's it I can see a picture of folate deficiency (induced by Fake Folate supplementation > less folate absorption) inducing a big appetite for oxalates! Gently paving the way for a catastrophic
- encounter with some bad biotin gobbling bacteria;
- encounter with a biotin destroying period of stress
etc…
All leading to a sorry result.

I cannot help but notice that the increase in Fake Folate supplementation in industrial food has led people to embrace vegetarianism. They eat more and more oxalates to compensate for the lack of absorbed folates?
But why do they spurn dairy products! Because more butyricum/K2 will make them uncomfortable by leading to oxalate dumping.
A bit strange if you consider that societies like traditional Indian when they are vegetarian eat dairy, venerate dairy and cows to the point that the kitchen is cleaned with cow dung (to ensure a handy supply of butyricum and parabutyricum bacteria), and on arrival at the temple daily receive a mouthful of "panchgavya": milk, curd, cheese, urine and dung.
Oh, and also garlic and onions are forbidden : I suppose they would induce a terrible attack of oxalate dumping.
I suppose the cows provide the biotin-producing bacteria? Or maybe people are chockfull with Oxalobacter formigenes?

Maybe this is all too much at one go, sorry I got carried away.

As you said, there must be a much more important role for biotin than has been up to now recognized.
Be well, blessings and :hug::hug::hug::hug:
 
Last edited:
A

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Asklipia said:
Unfortunately my scientific background is nil, all I have is this curious mind, a beautiful playful structuralist mind unencumbered by learning and free to consider the unorthodox.
Click to expand...
Having spent my entire working life in scientific research I can assure you that your kind of mind is very valuable. Good research has a strong creative element to it but many scientists don't have or have never developed their creative side. Still if they are at least open to the left field ideas that come from others they can still do good work.

It's my observation that you have very good instincts so I always pay close attention to your ideas.

Asklipia said:
If only this was true! I have to think this over. My hypothesis was that Vitamin K / butyrate / folate regulates the accumulation and dumping of oxalates.
Click to expand...

That might still hold. Really there is very little known about what precipitates oxalate dumping and the gut bacterial connection I mentioned is just one small part of a bigger very hazy picture.

I don't know much about vitamin K but have been trying to catch up and work out how exactly it might fit in - not making much progress yet but I'm sure you are right. It is important.
 
Asklipia

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
Maybe the presence of biotin allows for oxalate dumping and creates a even bigger need for biotin?
A bit like what happens with riboflavin, if you take a little you start processes that require even more riboflavin and you find yourself in B2 deficiency?
 
Last edited:
ahmo

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Asklipia said:
my scientific background is nil, all I have is this curious mind, a beautiful playful structuralist mind unencumbered by learning and free to consider the unorthodox. Somehow my computer (or the AI behind the searches) senses it and is not shy to throw at me these unusual results on the first page always! My husband does not get this on his computer!
Click to expand...
:):nerd:

Asklipia said:
I cannot help but notice that the increase in Fake Folate supplementation in industrial food has led people to embrace vegetarianism. They eat more and more oxalates to compensate for the lack of absorbed folates?
Click to expand...
:thumbsup::(

alicec said:
It's my observation that you have very good instincts so I always pay close attention to your ideas.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.