Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[aaron_c]

@Gondwanaland have you read that women have more problems with Oxalates than men?

 

[Gondwanaland]

re there any probiotics for salicylates/phenols,

Identification of key enzymes in the phenolic degradation pathway of Lactobacillus johnsonii N6.2
Apparently L. johnsonni is supposed to help, but it is sensitive to amines in the gut?
Also
http://ethesis.nitrkl.ac.in/4431/1/Satyasundar_Mohanty_Final_Thesis.pdf
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf300410h

have you read that women have more problems with Oxalates than men?

From my poor understanding it is the other way around?

 

[Violeta]

I was reading this study
Effect of sex hormones on oxalate-synthesizing enzymes in male and female rat livers

then I looked up glycolate oxidase on wikipedia:

then I looked up glyoxylate and dicarboxylate metabolism:

I barely understood anything, but I thought someone could extract the meaning out of it.

If I understand at least a little of it, B2 (FMN) has a role on it all, but it is not recommended in the oxalate lowering lists of supplements.

Oh boy, my little brain can't make anything out of that today. If you figure it out that would be great. I just keep on taking my B2, though, for sure.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Oh boy, my little brain can't make anything out of that today. If you figure it out that would be great. I just keep on taking my B2, though, for sure.

The only thing I understood well is that the B2 is a good thing.

 

[Indie]

I've had some success helping my oxalate problem using vitamin K2 (MK4). But I had major side effects from taking K2. It caused major urinary frequency/urgency/kidney discomfort by making my urine very acidic. And it caused strong lower back pain. So I stopped taking K2 for months, but then my oxalate problems started up again and I was having trouble with high oxalate foods again. Recently I re-started K2, but this time, I was able to counteract both side effects.

For the lower back pain I found that for me, olive leaf extract pills worked well. I took the olive leaf for a cold I had and was very surprised to notice that my lower back pain was gone. When I missed just one dose of olive leaf extract, the back pain started to come back. And the olive leaf worked fast for me. Within a few hours, my back pain was mostly gone. I don't know what this means. I believe that calcium oxalate crystals are a matrix that also contain pathogens like viruses, bacteria and yeast, so it could be that breaking up the calcium oxalate crystals with K2 (MK4) is also releasing viruses, bacteria or yeast or some other pathogen. Asklipia pointed this out earlier in this thread, and I believe Susan Owens of the Trying Low Oxalates group mentioned it also.

For the urinary frequency/urgency, I needed to get my electrolytes back up. I was eating foods high in potassium/magnesium and still couldn't keep up. Then I started an electrolyte drink. In my case I added one packet of Emergen-C's Electro Mix into a large glass of water and drank that every day. It gives me 120 mg magnesium and 408 mg potassium. But I also started taurine too. I took 1000 mg of taurine twice a day. Taurine helps get magnesium and potassium into the cells where it is needed. Either or both of these helped greatly.

Now, I'm at the point of increasing K2 and hoping that I don't get any more nasty side effects from the increase.

I've also found that boron, lysine and the probiotic VSL#3 were helpful. Dannybex mentioned in this thread that "lysine dissolves oxalates." I know it helps me.



Another possible benefit from K2 drops is that I noticed that the more K2 I took, the lower my hair cobalt was. When I don't take any K2, or only a minimal amount, my hair cobalt is off-the-charts high. When I take a good bit of K2, my hair cobalt is nearly normal, just a bit high. I know this is just a correlation and not cause-and-effect, but it is a very interesting correlation. And the correlation fit across six different hair tissue mineral analyses, as my K2 intake increased and decreased over time. When B12 is not absorbed well, it's possible that it gets excreted in hair tissue, and shows up as high cobalt in hair. Again, this is just a theory on my part. I have been able to find out very little on high cobalt in hair. At any rate, now that I'm taking more K2, I will run another hair tissue mineral analysis in a few months to see if cobalt again goes down. I read in this thread too that Yasko believes that low B12 is a common cause of high oxalate. Maybe there is a link to K2 with this? K2 helps you absorb B12 and therefore helps oxalates?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Oh boy, my little brain can't make anything out of that today. If you figure it out that would be great. I just keep on taking my B2, though, for sure.

What I meant is that B2 is missing from the supplement recomendations for lowering oxalates. It should be recommended.

@Indie very interesting info, thanks for that!
We hypothesized that K2-MK4 chelates oxalates from whatever it is bounded to, and of course it is probably one of the biofilm building blocks.

About your cobalt theory, I think it's right. K2 + B12 are used together to make testosterone for instance, in which I am very low, and I have been able to take a lot of B12 but no K2... Will try the OLE!

As for urine acidity, magnesium has helped me a lot in the past, but right now I ahven't been able to tolerate it - I get low potassium, and feel awful when supplementing potassium... my adrenals don't like it, plus I get extremely sensitive teeth and gums... Don't know what to do about it...

 

[alicec]

I barely understood anything, but I thought someone could extract the meaning out of it.

I think the most important conclusion is not to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

The study shows that the enzyme glycolate oxidase is responsive to testosterone. This clearly could have gender-related consequences, but is there any other reason to get excited about this study? Not particularly as far as I can see.
We need to consider where this enzyme fits into the wider picture of oxalate accumulation.

Glycolate and glyoxylate are interconverted. Glycolate is less reactive than glyoxylate and maybe this shunt is used as storage. In any case the key enzyme remains AGT - this is the critical step leading to harmless or harmful consequences . If it is not functioning properly any amount of B2 supplementation in the hope that you might stimulate GO will do you no good. It might make things worse, since you would shunting more glyoxylate to oxalate since AGT can't process it to glycine.

By the way I'm not saying you shouldn't supplement B2 - on the contrary, it may be extremely helpful in driving many sluggish metabolic pathways.

Finally the KEGG site is indeed interesting but it is encyclopaedic in its information - so again one needs to prioritise or put things into context. Many of the other pathways shown are not necessarily specially relevant, they just share some intermediate reactant. Most importantly they encompass all species.

I was a bit surprised to see the purine link - I had never seen anything about this previously. As I discovered when I looked it up, that's because the catabolism of purines to glyoxylate occurs in amphibians, fish and crustaceans, not primates.

 

[Violeta]

@alicec , do you know if B2 (FMN) is needed to activate the p5p for AGT in this particular instance?

Where would pyruvate be on that chart?

 

[Violeta]

I think the most important conclusion is not to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

The study shows that the enzyme glycolate oxidase is responsive to testosterone. This clearly could have gender-related consequences, but is there any other reason to get excited about this study? Not particularly as far as I can see.
We need to consider where this enzyme fits into the wider picture of oxalate accumulation.
View attachment 12208


Glycolate and glyoxylate are interconverted. Glycolate is less reactive than glyoxylate and maybe this shunt is used as storage. In any case the key enzyme remains AGT - this is the critical step leading to harmless or harmful consequences . If it is not functioning properly any amount of B2 supplementation in the hope that you might stimulate GO will do you no good. It might make things worse, since you would shunting more glyoxylate to oxalate since AGT can't process it to glycine.

By the way I'm not saying you shouldn't supplement B2 - on the contrary, it may be extremely helpful in driving many sluggish metabolic pathways.

Finally the KEGG site is indeed interesting but it is encyclopaedic in its information - so again one needs to prioritise or put things into context. Many of the other pathways shown are not necessarily specially relevant, they just share some intermediate reactant. Most importantly they encompass all species.

I was a bit surprised to see the purine link - I had never seen anything about this previously. As I discovered when I looked it up, that's because the catabolism of purines to glyoxylate occurs in amphibians, fish and crustaceans, not primates.

Is this chart inferring that the glycolate<<>>glyoxylate shuttle takes place in humans? Because this source says that it does not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyoxylate_cycle

 

[Violeta]

I was a bit surprised to see the purine link - I had never seen anything about this previously. As I discovered when I looked it up, that's because the catabolism of purines to glyoxylate occurs in amphibians, fish and crustaceans, not primates.

For the link to purine, if you are a member of the Yahoo Low Oxalate Diet group, do a search on uric acid and you may find some pertinent information.

 

[Violeta]

What I meant is that B2 is missing from the supplement recomendations for lowering oxalates. It should be recommended.

Yes, I agree!

 

[alicec]

@alicec , do you know if B2 (FMN) is needed to activate the p5p for AGT in this particular instance?

Where would pyruvate be on that chart?

AGT is a transaminase - it is B6 dependant.

Pyruvate is a bi-product of the AGT reaction - ie it is the remnant when alanine donates its amine group.

 

[alicec]

For the link to purine, if you are a member of the Yahoo Low Oxalate Diet group, do a search on uric acid and you may find some pertinent information.

I wasn't referring to uric acid but to the specific statement that purines produce glyoxylate. Not in primates.

 

[alicec]

Is this chart inferring that the glycolate<<>>glyoxylate shuttle takes place in humans? Because this source says that it does not.

The glyoxylate shuttle is something quite different - it is a truncated Kreb's cycle which occurs in the peroxisome. Actually it was mentioned at the end of @Gondwanaland's post and I meant to refer to it in my reply but forgot.

The source you quote is out of date. It is now known that the glyoxylate cycle does happen in humans though its function is not well understood. It seems to be a stress-related pathway.

We discussed it briefly on another thread - here.

I've uploaded a discussion of the cycle by Susan Owens if you are interested.

 

[Violeta]

AGT is a transaminase - it is B6 dependant.

Isn't B6 FMN dependent?

 

[Violeta]

The glyoxylate shuttle is something quite different - it is a truncated Kreb's cycle which occurs in the peroxisome. Actually it was mentioned at the end of @Gondwanaland's post and I meant to refer to it in my reply but forgot.

The source you quote is out of date. It is now known that the glyoxylate cycle does happen in humans though its function is not well understood. It seems to be a stress-related pathway.

We discussed it briefly on another thread - here.

I've uploaded a discussion of the cycle by Susan Owens if you are interested.

That may still be theoretical. That's why you see the words might, may, could, and probably throughout the article.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@alicec thank you so much for breaking down the info for us. I'm still not sure if I understand all of it though
Would you happen to know what could be depleted by supplementing Beta-Alanine? ( @Mary )

Isn't B6 FMN dependent?

I think all of the B vits get activated by FMN/B2, isn't that right?

 

[alicec]

Isn't B6 FMN dependent?

I simply stated that AGT uses B6 as a cofactor - it does not use B2.

The conversion of one form of B6 precursor to P5P is indeed FMN dependant but so what. Other precursor forms use different reactions - for example a transaminase reaction.

If you are trying to make the proposition that in the end everything comes back to B2 then go right ahead. I don't think it is particularly helpful in trying to sort through the complexities of interlocking metabolic pathways - it simply turns everything to mush.

 

[alicec]

That's why you see the words might, may, could, and probably throughout the article

Yes in relationship to what role if any this cycle is playing in mammals - we simply don't know. There is no if or but about the studies finding that the necessary enzymes are present.

 

[alicec]

Would you happen to know what could be depleted by supplementing Beta-Alanine?

Not offhand but maybe problems with it could have to do with either its capacity to bind oxalate and/or its acting as a co-agonist of glycine receptors, as discusses by @adreno earlier in this thread - here.