Onset associated with Exercise ?

[Mij]

I feel that I eventually recovered from the initial viral infection. I was able to continue running without any repercussions, no fatigue etc BUT I didn't experience a high or endorphin sensation from the exercise. It was odd.

Whatever the course was the developed into M.E was not from the exercise itself, but an abnormal immune response to exercise later down the road.

I hope I make sense

 

[Little running man]

I wonder if they're confusing overtraining syndrome with CFS.

Then again, we don't have a clear picture of what CFS is so the distinction is somewhat arbitrary at this point.

That's my thinking ....a running friend was diagnosed M.E but has recovered to run again (I'm not sure if it's a full recovery or good/bad days) so maybe the dr missed OTS ....this is also what I'm hoping for me that it's OTS not CFS!

 

[Little running man]

Robin Soderling has had to retire from tennis - he believes training during glandular fever is a cause.

Robin Soderling: Swede retires from tennis after glandular fever - http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/35170939


Here is my take :

If the world no.4 tennis player continues to train and play with glandular fever then I think it's fair to say most sports people at some time in their lives have trained or played with some form of virus infection. Serena Williams played the semi final of the French open with the flu
Therefore if exertion with a virus was a big factor we should see more cases of cfs/me amongst sports people.

I think exertion whilst carrying an infection may be a factor but I believe most people who train /play sports with a virus dont get me/cfs therefore there must be a bigger factor at play.
Maybe it's the exact virus, maybe it's the exact time of exertion during the infection, most likely it's the immune response but how can we determine if exertion plays a role or not ?

Also sports people with personal coaches would see OTS early and put more rest into the training plan and catch it early to allow quick recovery!!

My thinking (just a opinion) is that when you have a high training load, a outside stress such as family member ill, and rest /diet isn't good enough. Then it can lead to Full on OTS ......if you push on it can lead to adrenal fatigue (both have the same symptoms as CFS) .....now wether that can trigger CFS or not is anyone's guess?

Any thoughts on this? I'm new to this but mines sport linked in some way....

 

[Little running man]

I suspect some are certainly suffering form overtraining or fatigue rather than CFS and that it why I am interested in feedback here as i imagine most people here would not make that misjudgement.

I posted this elsewhere but in this video ( at 33:45 ish ) the Dr. makes reference to training with virus as if it's a common onset situation however the literature does not discuss this to my knowledge.

I'm struggling to get my dr to help. I believe there's a cortisol test that can be done to check adrenal gland function. They take blood, spike you with a injection then retake blood to check cortisol response/adrenal etc ....I'm led to believe this can flag OTS but I'm having trouble getting the test!

 

[Little running man]

I'm struggling to get my dr to help. I believe there's a cortisol test that can be done to check adrenal gland function. They take blood, spike you with a injection then retake blood to check cortisol response/adrenal etc ....I'm led to believe this can flag OTS but I'm having trouble getting the test!

also my white blood count was low before/after my marathon so running a sub 3 marathon with possibly a virus could have caused whatever it is I've got?

 

[BurnA]

Also sports people with personal coaches would see OTS early and put more rest into the training plan and catch it early to allow quick recovery!!

My thinking (just a opinion) is that when you have a high training load, a outside stress such as family member ill, and rest /diet isn't good enough. Then it can lead to Full on OTS ......if you push on it can lead to adrenal fatigue (both have the same symptoms as CFS) .....now wether that can trigger CFS or not is anyone's guess?

Any thoughts on this? I'm new to this but mines sport linked in some way....

I don't think OTS and CFS are linked but who knows because so little is understood about either. If they were linked I think we would have seen evidence by now. Most people recover from OTS and even if they don't it doesn't impact their lives as long as they don't train. This can't be said for CFS/ME.

You would think top sports people have the right advice from coaches but if robin soderling continued to train and play when ill then I think they are just as vulnerable as the rest of us at making bad decisions.

 

[Little running man]

Perhaps there is a gradual onset thing where people get a trigger and mild effects but then exercise and get much worse. There are a lot of people who report getting really bad after GET where they push themselves too hard.

The onset could be the random generation of an anti-body but then there needs to be other effects to disrupt various cycles within the body. Or it could be a anti-body->infection->mild->exercise->severe model where an infection is needed but could be relatively low level.[/QUOTE]

Could it be that as keen sports people we just notice things quicker than non sports people.

For example I know my times/splits for distances/speeds so well. So if I'm running 10m at 6:50mm pace it's a walk in the park (marathon pace) so if I suddenly find it hard for no reason at 8mm somethings wrong. So you put it down to a off day. Once your times start to tumble and the effort required is more for less results then we immediately notice so it's flagged earlier and it's put down to overtraining so we rest.

So if its something that has been triggered we'd notice it 1st through our sports?

 

[BurnA]

I'm struggling to get my dr to help. I believe there's a cortisol test that can be done to check adrenal gland function. They take blood, spike you with a injection then retake blood to check cortisol response/adrenal etc ....I'm led to believe this can flag OTS but I'm having trouble getting the test!

I don't want to give you advice on what you should do or not but ask yourself what will a test tell you ? Either it's OTS or CFS or something else. A lot of the something elses can be ruled out by a lot of routine tests. If the problem is that you can't run or feel worse after running then stop running. A test result won't help you with that decision. I know everyone wants to know what Is wrong with them but if it's ots it's not that serious so dont worry about testing for it.

 

[Little running man]

I don't think OTS/CFS are linked either I just think it can be misdiagnosed that's all.

Especially as OTS should almost always be recoverable from.....CFS unfortunately doesn't seem to be curable.

 

[BurnA]

Perhaps there is a gradual onset thing where people get a trigger and mild effects but then exercise and get much worse. There are a lot of people who report getting really bad after GET where they push themselves too hard.

The onset could be the random generation of an anti-body but then there needs to be other effects to disrupt various cycles within the body. Or it could be a anti-body->infection->mild->exercise->severe model where an infection is needed but could be relatively low level.

Could it be that as keen sports people we just notice things quicker than non sports people.

For example I know my times/splits for distances/speeds so well. So if I'm running 10m at 6:50mm pace it's a walk in the park (marathon pace) so if I suddenly find it hard for no reason at 8mm somethings wrong. So you put it down to a off day. Once your times start to tumble and the effort required is more for less results then we immediately notice so it's flagged earlier and it's put down to overtraining so we rest.

So if its something that has been triggered we'd notice it 1st through our sports?

Possibly but I think it would have to be very gradual. In my case it went from feeling off to not being able to get out of bed within 3 weeks.

 

[Little running man]

Possibly but I think it would have to be very gradual. In my case it went from feeling off to not being able to get out of bed within 3 weeks.

I feel that I eventually recovered from the initial viral infection. I was able to continue running without any repercussions, no fatigue etc BUT I didn't experience a high or endorphin sensation from the exercise. It was odd.

Whatever the course was the developed into M.E was not from the exercise itself, but an abnormal immune response to exercise later down the road.

I hope I make sense

I don't have the endorphin high anymore either! Even after a sub 3 hour marathon at London in April. I just shrugged and thought is that it? Though I had to work a lot harder than I had in training as the initial sore throat/fatigue cycle started a month before the marathon, which meant I tired earlier than I should have......this is just my way of saying I should have felt a endorphin high at the end, surely?

 

[Little running man]

Possibly but I think it would have to be very gradual. In my case it went from feeling off to not being able to get out of bed within 3 weeks.

I'm trying to work out a time line from my diary.....

17 March 15 I felt ill after running.
22 March 15 felt OK again raced 20m very pleased.
** I then had a couple of weeks of up/down but as marathon training was coming to a end and I'd raced 20m I put it down to that. ****
15 April 15 sore throat/fatigue felt like crap for 3 days
18 April 15 ran a 5k pb in under 18 mins but it was harder work than it should have been.
26 April 15 sub 3 hour marathon but once again fatigued earlier than normal.
**felt pants for 17 days light milage put it down to post marathon (although I'm normally fine the following couple of days after a race. Even after running ultras of 45m) .
****
12 May 15 I've put down total fatigue, no energy and feel awful. Throat is sore again. Once again 3 days and begin to recover.

Then ever since I've been up and down in cycles. Blood tests and Drs plus ran/cycled when I could

13 November 15 sore throat (constant now) fatigued badly and stopped exercise. Feel pants. This was for 9 days.

23 Nov 15 tired, still have sore throat no exercise but not really fatigued like I was, just tired/lathargic etc

****same thing until 26th/27th Dec (I ran) don't feel any worse for running but it was short/slow. But feel mentally better!!

Which is when I found this site.....

Is this similar time line with any others who are keen sportspeople suffering CFS?

 

[BurnA]

There is a good chance you are suffering from OTS however the sore throat would be the thing to get checked imo. Do this soon as it might indicate if you have a persistant virus or not. Most people who present for CFS no longer have the initial infection because it generally clears within a few weeks, leaving the symptoms of cfs behind.

 

[Little running man]

There is a good chance you are suffering from OTS however the sore throat would be the thing to get checked imo. Do this soon as it might indicate if you have a persistant virus or not. Most people who present for CFS no longer have the initial infection because it generally clears within a few weeks, leaving the symptoms of cfs behind.

Good advice! Thankyou. I'll get back to the dr about the throat and chase up on the tests he's looking into! I'm trying to elimate all the things I can as I go!

I've had him check thyroid/glandular fever/iron,ferretin etc, .....he's also checked cancers and even HIV. So hopefully I'll get somewhere soon.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep reading.

 

[MeSci]

There is a good chance you are suffering from OTS however the sore throat would be the thing to get checked imo. Do this soon as it might indicate if you have a persistant virus or not. Most people who present for CFS no longer have the initial infection because it generally clears within a few weeks, leaving the symptoms of cfs behind.

Not necessarily. Cold-type symptoms are mostly due to our immune response rather than to the virus itself, so sore throat (which is common in ME/CFS) could be an autoimmune - or autoinflammatory - response.

 

[MeSci]

I'm struggling to get my dr to help. I believe there's a cortisol test that can be done to check adrenal gland function. They take blood, spike you with a injection then retake blood to check cortisol response/adrenal etc ....I'm led to believe this can flag OTS but I'm having trouble getting the test!

I think you mean the test that is called the Synacthen test in the UK.

See this post and those following it for why this may be pointless in ME/CFS (and possibly associated conditions?).

 

[Little running man]

I think you mean the test that is called the Synacthen test in the UK.

See this post and those following it for why this may be pointless in ME/CFS (and possibly associated conditions?).

The post you highlighted makes sense (I believe) about the synacthen test for CFS ....... I've asked for the test to discount or prove OTS which I'm hoping would work? I'm afraid my science isn't up to the speed of you guys But from what I read if the cortisol is low and fails to rise after being spiked it can show adrenal fatigue and indicate OTS?

 

[MeSci]

The post you highlighted makes sense (I believe) about the synacthen test for CFS ....... I've asked for the test to discount or prove OTS which I'm hoping would work? I'm afraid my science isn't up to the speed of you guys But from what I read if the cortisol is low and fails to rise after being spiked it can show adrenal fatigue and indicate OTS?

I don't know anything about OTS, but a quick internet search for 'OTS cortisol' found this interesting paper.

Here is some info about the Synacthen test:

http://patient.info/health/synacthen-test
http://www.pathology.leedsth.nhs.uk...estsshortlong/StandardShortSynacthenTest.aspx

 

[Little running man]

I don't know anything about OTS, but a quick internet search for 'OTS cortisol' found this interesting paper.



Here is some info about the Synacthen test:

http://patient.info/health/synacthen-test
http://www.pathology.leedsth.nhs.uk...estsshortlong/StandardShortSynacthenTest.aspx

Both are a little over my head .....but both seem to highlight the lack of sound knowledge or testing for CFS or OTS ......if the tests are so poor, it seems crazy that you can't get a real diagnosis.

If there's no way to prove you have CFS then how will it be taken seriously by people other than those who have it? Self diagnosis would surely mean you cannot get any help if you're unable to work? I'm lucky that this has only really impacted on my running and I've been able to function pretty normally. But some of you have obviously been going through this for years and in a worse state! How do you manage?

 

[MeSci]

Both are a little over my head .....but both seem to highlight the lack of sound knowledge or testing for CFS or OTS ......if the tests are so poor, it seems crazy that you can't get a real diagnosis.

If there's no way to prove you have CFS then how will it be taken seriously by people other than those who have it? Self diagnosis would surely mean you cannot get any help if you're unable to work? I'm lucky that this has only really impacted on my running and I've been able to function pretty normally. But some of you have obviously been going through this for years and in a worse state! How do you manage?

CFS diagnosis, at least in the UK, is usually by excluding other things, such as hypothyroidism and some viruses. The Synacthen test isn't used for it AFAIK.

Whether or not one can get welfare benefits doesn't depend on the specific illness, but on the degree and types of disability/incapacity that the assessors believe you have.

How do we manage? On the whole, with a lot of difficulty. If you want more detail have a look in this sub-forum.

Some people tragically don't manage.

BTW there were 3 links - did you check out the middle one, which is for laypersons?