Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Only injected B12 effective??

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by AlwaysTired, May 11, 2017.

  1. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    The parque hydroxyl under the tongue has been great for me. Doctor thinks since I have bad immune system injection might be a risk ( unnecessary exposure)
     
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I didn't see anything against topical application on that site, only oral (including sublingual). Although I haven't seen the studies and don't know if they are actually published, the scientist who runs B12 oils and produces products for topical application says he get 80% uptake via that route. He is a reputable scientist with quite a background in B12 research so I do take him seriously.

    Undoubtedly injection gives the highest uptake but topical is not far behind.

    Sublingual and other oral methods are very inefficient - maybe 10% if you let the lozenges dissolve slowly.

    There is less support for their claim that hydroxycobalamin is the best form for injection. It seems to be more a question of what is familiar. For reasons which are not really clear (there is no serious experimental testing of assumptions) hydrocobalamin has become accepted and widely used in the West while in Asia and especially Japan, methylcobalamin is preferred.

    Way back, which cyanocobalamin was widely used, it was argued that since the upper axial ligand (cyano, methyl, hydroxy etc) gets removed when the vitamin is taken up into cells, it doesn't matter what form is used. Since cyano is easy to produce this was widely promoted.

    Then people found that the hydroxy form seemed to be more beneficial in certain clinical situations. It was not clear then why this was so, nor is it clear now. There has been little investigation of mechanism but in any case, hydroxy became favoured in the West.

    Similar observations in Japan led to use of methylcobalamin.

    I haven't seen any direct comparison of the two in clinical trials.

    There are plenty of anecdotal reports on PR of people finding a difference in the effectiveness of different forms. At this stage there is too much unknown about B12 metabolism, particularly about the effect of large doses, to be as dogmatic as that website.

    You would need to try the different forms to find out which suits you.

    One advantage of sublinguals is that the dose is very small. This is probably a good place to start since many people on PR report sensitivity to B12 (and folate). Rushing in to a large injectable dose might not be wise.
     
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  4. Groggy Doggy

    Groggy Doggy Senior Member

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  5. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    Not seeing anything in support of topicals there either, so hard to say where they stand on them.

    I have B12 shots, but they were pre-filled by a naturopath for me and after reading in another thread here about how it takes very little light to degrade B12 (which seems to be supported elsewhere and accounts for why people usually fill their syringe from a dark bottle right before injecting it) I decided to stop with my injections and try the methyl and adenosyl B12 lozenges I saw recommended by Freddd.

    The shots didn't seem to be giving me any results anyway, so I figured the sublingual methyl B12 may be a better way to go.

    I've taken 5000mcg of mB12 and 10,000mcg aB12 (country life and anabol naturals brand, respectively) the past two days. Haven't had any adverse reactions so far, so maybe I wasn't deficient?

    I know only a small percentage gets absorbed but the two together provide over 260,000% of daily value for B12 so even if only 1% makes it to my cells I am guessing that's sufficient?

    What alarmed me about the article wasn't that they were suggesting low absorption rates but that whatever you may get isn't even enough to fix a deficiency. I wish they had specified how much (like what percentage) of the DV someone with CFS/ME would need to see some relief in symptoms and how much THEY believe gets absorbed from the lozenges and other methods of delivery.

    I also wonder what the brands were they tested and if the ones recommended in Freddds protocol were among them.

    The report definitely creates more questions than it answers, and they do acknowledge that some non-injected forms are helpful for some but it gave me pause when they indicated what a large pool of patients they had pulled evidence from and made me wonder if those who do see improvements from non-injected B12 really are the exceptions

    If this doesn't do anything for me, I may try topical or try to do injections again but with syringes that haven't been pre-filled
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  6. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    I don't dispute that. I'm more wondering if the others are at least sufficient (at least when taken in the right form and from the right brand) for us...
     
  7. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    This has been researched and found that sublingual is effective and though the absorption percent is low you can substitute sublingual for injection. I forget where there was a study done where injection ran out of stock for a few months(?) so they had the unique ability to compare sublingual and different doses on people who were on regular injection. You might be able to find the study.
    I forget where i read a 2mg sublingual daily is equivalent to a monthly injection, might be the same study.
     
  8. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    I was taking 1ml injections 2x a week and traded them out for sublinguals since I got paranoid that all the b12 in my syringes was destroyed from light exposure. I didn't realize the equivalence was to one shot a month, though I am taking a much higher daily dose than 2mg


    I also question the reliability of blood tests for B12 levels (or really for levels of anything) since that doesn't tell you whether or not the cells are actually absorbing it

    I would like to see the study, though
     
  9. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    I don't have the study handy and my numbers may be wrong, so do try to find it to figure out the equivalence
    True but that will not change based on sublingual vs injection, its a different problem, though chances are b12 deficiency is not causing your ME/CFS and i have read a few theories that high doses probably helps by some kind of pharmacologic action different then deficiency mitigation.
     
  10. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    I'm going to look for it.

    My comment about blood tests was more an edit of a longer train of thought I had originally typed about wondering if people who had tried non-injected forms with no result maybe would benefit from injections. The thought being that tests probably couldn't reliably measure deficiency corrections.

    I've been having fairly bad brain fog as of late and was hoping that B12 may help that. I've struggled with getting tired easily my whole life and suspect I may have an mthfr mutation, so that's kind of what has led me to the idea that b12 could help.

    I don't subscribe to the idea that a single deficiency is at the root of this syndrome, though.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  11. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    I read another study about b12 and folic acid helping people with ME/CFS, and its easy to find last time i checked. I found it reduced my headache and fluid draining sensation, and reduced PEM a day or two, i use methylfolate since high doses of folic acid may cause harm according to a few sources.
     
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