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Oil of Oregano for SIBO

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by outdamnspot, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    I've been discussing Oil of Oregano with @ljimbo423, but also wanted to start a thread to glean some other experiences, given that I've read conflicting reports on its supposed safety. Some people claim it destroys beneficial flora, and I also read one guy here state that he believes it tipped his ME into the severe category.

    Has anyone else here tried it to treat SIBO?

    I'm about 5 days in and it makes me feel kinda off in a similar way to Flagyl .. just a little 'toxic', fuzzy-headed, very apathetic etc.

    I've put this down to herxing/die-off and am using coffee enemas to cope.
     
  2. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I have taken lots of Oregano oil in the past year and it seems to agree with me. I find its effect quite mild and am currently taking Biocare Oregano Complex which also seems quite mild.

    In December 2015 I did the Genova GI Effects Stool test and it showed high levels of Citrobacter plus E Coli was a +4 and a couple of others. My results also indicated possible SIBO.

    From time to time it can get out of hand and then I need a short course of Rimfaxamin which definitely helps. I then continue on and off with the Oregano or something like Grapefruit Seed Extract. So to sum up I think it is somewhat helpful but not strong enough to deal with a stubborn case of SIBO.

    Pam
     
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  3. Carl

    Carl

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    SIBO is caused by lack of stomach acid (hypochlorhydria)! The only way to successfully treat it is to get your stomach acid to functional levels. With CFS that is far easier said than done because of the cause of CFS, a bacteria. I suggest that you read up on Urease. The urea comes from Saliva so every time you swallow saliva, which is increased by histamine release when food hits the stomach of CFS sufferers, more saliva is produced. Cortisol also plays a part and increases saliva when histamine is released. Not providing the bacteria with saliva while digesting protein can raise stomach acid levels which should help deal with SIBO. I have been doing this for over 3 years since I worked out what was happening.

    Oregano I have used occasionally but not for SIBO. For a short term treatment you might try colloidal silver, it depends how quickly it is absorbed on how effective and how far into the small intestine it will affect.

    Be aware that taking HCl in cases of CFS is a waste of money! It will not raise the stomach acid level for more than a minute or two. Every little bit of saliva you swallow will provide the urea that the urease bacteria will use to neutralise any acid. The ammonia produced by urease produces carbon dioxide when it reacts with hydrochloric acid. I noticed this in Dec 2012-Jan 2013 while I was taking HCl capsules. BTW I have tested negative for helicobacter so I know that it is not that urease positive bacteria. Dr Myhill has commented that some of her patients have tested positive and some negative for helicobacter but she could not work out why they they were hypochlorhydric, I did not make that mistake. There are other urease positive bacteria. With all the stomach symptoms in CFS patients if you think about it, it becomes clear where the problem lies.......

    So there you have it, that is where your enemy lies. Destroy that and you will be free of CFS. The stomach and transverse colon heals the moment that the bacteria are destroyed. No amount of useless supplements will reverse increased intestinal permeability syndrome aka leaky gut, because the bacteria prevent the digestive system from healing. I have experienced this myself and healed a part of my stomach and colon when I destroyed a large portion of their biofilm a few months back. Unfortunately this was not the portion which is the cause of CFS but another section which might just of been an infection which took advantage of the conditions. I do not know whether it is related, it was not as resistant as the ones causing CFS. The bacteria causing CFS have been resistant to everything so far. Many anti biofilm substances and enzymes(interfase+) with colloidal silver only resulted in minor effect, a sensation in my stomach where they are located. That was a greater effect than I have ever experienced before but not enough to resolve it. For my next attempt I will use a brute force approach and hope that it is successful.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  4. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

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    I completely disagree with this statement. Betaine HCl is well known for aiding digestion by increasing stomach acid levels. Anyone who has taken too much Betaine HCl knows that the stomach warmth from excess acid will last a lot longer than a minute or two.

    Betaine HCl (with pepsin) is one supplement that is indispensable for me, allows me to digest protein properly, and is the first supplement that had a major influence on reducing some of my symptoms. Many people with, and without CFS/ME have been helped by Betaine HCl because it works.

    Many people have tried anti-bacterials to treat their CFS/ME and have found no little or no difference in their symptoms. Your statement is arrogant not only because it isn't known if CFS/ME has a bacterial cause but because you haven't even cured yourself.

    No one knows what causes CFS/ME, this is why so many researchers are working on the problem, and why so many people are still sick.

    It's good that you want to help others but unless you can back up your claims with proof then please refrain from making such overconfident statements, especially when your own health is still compromised.
     
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  5. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    I don't even know where to begin with this...

    1) No one knows what the cause of CFS/ME is. No one. ALL of the leading worldwide CFS/ME specialists have various hypothesis than range from viral infections, lyme infections, antiautobodies/immune system dysregulation, etc....but not a single one can prove the actual cause.

    2) Urea is produced in the liver from ammonia, not from saliva. A 10 second internet search is all that's needed to confirm this.

    3) Taking HCl is NOT a waste of money. My entire family has used HCl as needed over the years and it has made a world of difference in their ability to digest protein. I have no idea where you got the idea that it raises stomach acid for only a minute or two, this is just false.


    To @outdamnspot , there are only a very few specific bacterial/spirochete infections that when treated with antibiotics cause a Herxheimer reaction (Lyme and syphilis are the two main ones). Unfortunately a lot of 'alternative health' people starting claiming that bad reactions to a treatment were Herxheimer effects (which they weren't) as a way to explain negative reactions that they themselves didn't understand. It is extremely unlikely that what you are experiencing is a Herxheimer effect, and if you are responding negatively, be very very careful, and consider stopping or reducing the dosage.

    My husband had suspected SIBO and took Rifaximin to treat it - it ended up doing more harm than good, and completely destroyed his GI system because he continued to take it, thinking that the negative effects he was experiencing were a Herx reaction (before we researched what this was and understood that it didn't apply to most treatments). In retrospect, that treatment probably destroyed all the good E. Coli bacteria in his gut, and it was only after doing a long supplementation with Mutaflor (which is E. Coli Nissilie 1917 bacteria) and taking HCl to digest meals properly that all his SIBO symptoms vanished.
     
  6. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    @Basilico I don't completely agree with that statement. It may not be a formal Herxheimer reaction, but I do believe that killing off yeast, gut infections etc. can produce die-off reactions -- and this was confirmed by a renowned gastroenterologist I saw a few months ago with an interest in FMT, dysbiosis etc. I did make the mistake of doing a course of Flagyl last year which one doctor, likewise, believes has killed off my good flora, and would like me to have a stool analysis done again (permitting I can ever afford it). I also don't know if herbal antibiotics are comparable to prescription antibiotics in that regard. I do only plan to remain on the OOO for 1-2 weeks max, and also, as a matter of fact, have a box of Mutaflor sitting in the fridge that I plan to follow it up with.

    If I am wrong re: die-off reactions, then I apologize, but I have discussed this with @ljimbo423 for the past few weeks; he also reports experiencing die-off, but has been improving with time.
     
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  7. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    @outdamnspot , Herxheimer reaction has only been proven in a very small number of specific infections/treatments. This doesn't mean that it can't be happening other times, but I think it happens much less than people think, and are often told to 'push through' the die-off, when it's actually not die-off they are experiencing.

    People with CFS/ME have really unusual and strong reactions to many different kinds of vitamins, supplements, and medicines, and I think that there is a danger in continuing to take things that illicit a negative reaction because we don't really know what's causing it. If you feel strongly that you are experiencing a Herx reaction, I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you otherwise, because I have no way to know anymore than you do. Just be very, very careful, and if something doesn't feel right, listen to it.

    I'm glad you have some Mutaflor on hand :) just know that you will probably need more than 1 box. I think the recommended treatment is 4 pills/day for 2 months. My husband did about 1 years worth of supplementation, but many of his symptoms were gone/diminished by about 2-3 months.
     
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  8. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    @Basilico I wish I did have an answer; I am a fan of Ken from CFSremission's blog and he warns about die-off reactions in response to antimicrobial herbs. I actual feel pretty awful on the OOO: far more depressed, foggy, apathetic, tired etc. So I try to stick with it in the hope I may come out a little better. Enduring it is admittedly extremely difficult; but so is continuing in my baseline state.
     
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  9. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    As you say, urea is produced in the liver but it is present throughout the body; it circulates in the blood and is excreted via the kidneys.

    A little of what @Carl says is correct - viz that saliva can be a source of urea going in to the stomach. The other source is gastric secretions. The amount of urea present in these fluids reflects the amount in the blood.

    This happens in everyone. Where trouble may arise is when significant amounts of urease-producing bacteria are also present. If these are in the mouth, this can lead to dental caries, in the stomach, it can be part of gastric ulcer formation. H.pylori is a well known culprit for this effect in the stomach, but other urease-producing bacteria have also been identified there.

    Apart from that, there is little else in @Carl's post that is enlightening. If he knows something about the cause of ME/CFS that we have all missed, I wish he would pass it on.
     
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  10. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I agree re the antimicrobial downside. I'm going thru a SIBO protocol right now (Biotics brand, same herbs and dosages as in the John Hopkins study plus allicillin because SIBO-C) and feel completely apathetic plus foggier and more tired than usual... I felt like this except worse on nystatin, so I tend to agree that it's killing something in my gut and I should push through... I also agree that CFSers are sensitive to drugs and supplements but this is not sensitivity... honestly that's what's makes it hard...in general, it's not black and white at all and you have to make a judgment call every time! So this time, onward...

    I did a protocol back in January using candibactan AR and candibactan BR and it was WAAAAYYY Easier! The biotics is cheaper, so it's all that I can afford right now, but from now on its candibactan or bust... if you can afford the candibactan- which was also in the John Hopkins study - then maybe try that??

    Some swear by the combo of berberine and neem plus, but I read that neem can affect hormones, so I went w the Biotics herbs plus allicillin
     
  11. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    I think oregano is great for SIBO but I don't think taking it for just two weeks is going to do the trick.............or were you thinking about pulsing? Also...............don't know what kind of diet if any you are on.................but for myself...........grains, dairy, corn and sugar (except from fruit) were my worst enemies and SIBO would not clear up until I eliminated them. Even now if I cheat too much on diet.............I will start getting burning in colon as well as my bladder.

    I definitely think the symptoms you described are from "die off".
     
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  12. ryan31337

    ryan31337 Senior Member

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    I've been treating SIBO for ~6 weeks after a positive lactulose breath test. My results showed the classic 'twin peak': 0ppm baseline, first peak @42ppm hydrogen and second peak 64ppm hydrogen. Methane started at 3ppm and fluctuated between 0 and 6ppm. I had been low FODMAP for years and very low carb (keto) for 4x months prior, so although still clearly SIBO positive I suspect my results were attenuated by diet somewhat. Certainly ignoring the very restrictive diet led to completely intolerable symptoms.

    First 10x days was Rifaxamin & Garlic Plus. I was told this was to target hydrogen producing bacteria, with the garlic there to control any methane producing bacteria overgrowth. Garlic was in place of metronidazole, as my methane levels were borderline so deemed perhaps not worth the risk of systemic antiobiotic treatment.

    Zero side effects, my bowel movements improved immediately and towards the end of the course I was feeling really quite energetic indeed. I had been on a gradual upward trajectory since starting the keto diet but this did seem to give me a good shove in the right direction. For the first time in months I went the full 10 days without any Pompholyx eczema breakouts or stomach reactions from eating, I had more in the tank and didn't suffer usual migraines after pushing it.

    Following the 10x day course I started Candibactin AR (Oregano Oil), Candibactin BR, N-acetylcysteine (biofilm disrupter) & Garlic Plus. I brought them in gradually: low dose and 1x at a time. I immediately had sustained gut and skin reactions and felt fatigued with more migraines. I took ~1 week to reach full dose (4x AR, 6x BR, 3x NAC, 3x Garlic p-day), by this time feeling of ill health had increased and I was experiencing full-on stomach pain & nausea, worsened POTS/OI symptoms and fatigue significant enough to cause me to sleep during the daytime. Thankfully these significant problems lasted 4-5 days and abated, leaving me with just the slightly reduced energy and tolerable skin/gut reactions again.

    My naturopath didn't use the term herx or die-off, but considered it the result of the herbs working. She advised that herbs work along the entire gut, unlike Rifaxamin which primarily targets small intestine, and that it was probably the result of the herbs inhibiting con-current yeast/pathogens in the large intestine too. I was very close to pulling the plug on them as I felt incredibly rotten! But will now continue for the full 2 month course.
     
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  13. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ryan31337
    " I took ~1 week to reach full dose (4x AR, 6x BR, 3x NAC, 3x Garlic p-day)"

    1. Did you take 1 or 2 pills each time you took a dose?
    2. So, you're keeping up this dose schedule for 2 months?

    Thanks
     
  14. ryan31337

    ryan31337 Senior Member

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    Hi @ebethc,

    I started with 1x pill, once a day, quickly ramping that up to full dosage and then repeating with the next pill in addition. I took it upon myself to do this as I don't tend to react well to new meds and have Mast Cell Activation type symptoms.

    Now I take 2x AR twice daily and 2x BR three times daily, all with meals, for 2 months yes.

    Ryan
     
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  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ryan31337

    Thanks.. did this protocol help w brain fog? Fatigue? Joint pain? Mast cell symptoms?

    I'm coming to the conclusion that my problems are rooted in my gut, but that could be oversimplification on my part..
     
  16. ryan31337

    ryan31337 Senior Member

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    @ebethc you're welcome.

    I'll let you know in a few weeks when I finish :)

    Like the others here I'm feeling a little worse whilst on the herbals compared to before, but I guess time will tell. I am due to start adding some starches back into my diet whilst taking these, as part of the Bi-Phasic SIBO diet plan. I must make an effort to do so now that i'm seemingly over the big 'die-off' hump, its easy to just stick with my 'safe' shopping list and not vary...

    I do feel my Mast Cell Activation type symptoms probably originate in the gut, perhaps largely consequential of SIBO. I also have Hyper POTS and so much of what I experience matches what those diagnosed with 'true' MCAS have - but I have no issues with smells, emotions etc. or full on anaphylaxis. I think it is something related but not actual MCAS as its understood currently. Perhaps more histamine orientated... I don't know, too complex to guess.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  17. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Did you complete the protocol? Did it help?
     
  18. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

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    Damn straight. I keep milk on hand for when i have taken too much HCL
     
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  19. ryan31337

    ryan31337 Senior Member

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    Finished about a week ago. Still on very low carb diet so not entirely clear as yet. I tried to introduce some fruits towards the end of treatment but still found myself bloating half the time after small amounts.

    Since finishing I tried some refrigerated leftovers (just meat) and had an immediate reaction, whereas no reaction the night before when eating it freshly cooked. This was always the case before, assuming histamine related and not improved.

    Doing another SIBO breath test tomorrow, will see if objectively anything has changed and report back.
     
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  20. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Does milk/dairy squelch stomach acid?
     

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