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OAT, PLEASE INTERPET

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
For individuals with normal, healthy intestinal function, these compounds should not appear at more than background concentrations in urine due to the efficient metabolic conservation or recycling of phenyl group compounds of which they are composed. They are produced by microbial action on tyrosine and phenylalanine and are markers of bacterial growth in the gut

As mentioned earlier my phe is thro the roof, 239(22-62). Could this be an indicator of bacterial overgrowth?


One product of anaerobic bacteria, 3-phenylpropionic acid, is normally converted to common hippuric acid, but is excreted as 3-phenylpropionylglycine in individuals with a relatively common inborn error of fatty acid oxidation [31].

My Hippuric level is <dl. My benzoin is .07(<=.05). I'm not sure what to make of this.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I read that Fe and GSH and cysteine are important from citrate to isocitrate. My GSH levels seem to be normal- 1,191(>=669) micromol/L. I don't know what my Fe levels are but I know I'm not anemic. How would one supplement with Fe? My cysteine level is 52(19-70) tho my cystine is 19(23-68). Don't know what's going on there.

Don't take the recommendations too literally. They are trying to summarise a complex situation.

The enzyme aconitase, which catalyses the two steps leading from citrate to isocitrate, contains iron-sulfur clusters which are essential for activity. So yes, sufficient iron is necessary, but things can go wrong even when you have plenty.

Cys is mentioned because it is ultimately a source of the sulphide used in forming the cluster.

Reduced glutathione (GSH) is important because the complexes are very susceptible to oxidation. GSH plays a protective role.

In your case, definitely don't supplement iron unless you know you are low. Too much iron has it's own set of problems.

Your GSH status does seem pretty good and you have plenty of cysteine and not too much cystine (the oxidised form of cysteine) so there doesn't seem to be a serious issue with oxidative stress.

Other things can block aconitase - eg it can be poisoned by heavy metals, it is also disabled by nitric oxide and peroxynitrile, ie it is also susceptible to nitrosative stress.

At isocitric, 25(22-65) to AKG, <dl, I'm totally stuffed. I need B3, mg, mn, and the amino acids: glu,his,arg,pro,and gln. My B vit are low normal but that was before I started supplementing with Dr Amy's All in One multi. Ar is low but I'm already supplementing w it (70 mg). Pro is low 3(2-14). I think I'll up the dose on ag and include pro. All other minerals and amino acids listed are normal. I think something else is going on.

First of all the amino acids listed at various points in the cycle are not required for the cycle to proceed, they are shown at the points where they feed into the cycle when they are burned for energy.

The step where your Kreb's cycle fails badly is in formation of alpha keto glutarate from isocitrate. This requires NAD+ (hence B3) and magnesium or manganese. Regardless of what you are currently supplementing, I'd be looking at those things very carefully.

Succinyl CoA is produced from AKG and coenzyme A. You are not producing the AKG to drive the reaction.

AKG is produced in many other places as part of aminoacid interconversions (transaminase reactions). These are B6 dependant reactions, The fact that you are so low in AKG suggests you should be thinking about B6 also.

There may well be several things going on. I'm sorry I can't interpret your OAT for you though I'm happy to give information. Maybe the practitioner who ordered the test could offer some help.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
As mentioned earlier my phe is thro the roof, 239(22-62). Could this be an indicator of bacterial overgrowth?

That was the first thing I thought of. Usually though it is breakdown products that accumulate - ie an organism is metabolising various substrates such as amino acids and I couldn't think of anything that would be producing phe.

Still though it would be worth doing more investigation of this possibility.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
There may well be several things going on. I'm sorry I can't interpret your OAT for you though I'm happy to give information. Maybe the practitioner who ordered the test could offer some he

I value any input you can give me. My functional doc (the only one in San Diego who accepts my insurance) doesn't seem to know much. I'll test him next time with questions about the Krebs cycle.

The step where your Kreb's cycle fails badly is in formation of alpha keto glutarate from isocitrate. This requires NAD+ (hence B3) and magnesium or manganese. Regardless of what you are currently supplementing, I'd be looking at those things very carefully.

I'm taking 30 mg B3 (nicinamide), 100 mg magnesium citrate, and 1 mg manganese citrate. Mn was low in metal test so I think I'll increase it to 3 mg. More? I'm taking 10 mg B6 (pyridoxine HCL).

My lab results were before I started supplementing. I want to test again In a month. This time a serum OA.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I'm taking 30 mg B3 (nicinamide), 100 mg magnesium citrate, and 1 mg manganese citrate. Mn was low in metal test so I think I'll increase it to 3 mg. More? I'm taking 10 mg B6 (pyridoxine HCL).

It's possible you might need much more if there is a significant blockage of an enzyme. Large amounts of cofactor might be needed to drive it (just something to consider).

Occasionally there might be genetic reasons for the blockage but more often it is likely to be for other reasons.

To give you an example I am familiar with (I'm not suggesting you have this problem, its just to illustrate). Chronic oxidative stress can mess with B6 dependant enzymes. It changes the conformation of the enzyme so it no longer binds B6 well and doesn't function well. Large amounts of B6 can at least in part overcome the problem.

One consequence of poor enzyme function is accumulation of oxalates which are metabolic poisons. These in turn block the action of various other classes of enzymes - eg biotin and B1 dependant enzyme, to name just a couple.

Among the strategies to overcome the primary and secondary consequences of oxalate accumulation are supplementation with quite high amounts of B6, biotin and B1.

The form of vitamin supplemented might make a difference also, since many of the Bs need to be converted to active forms and there can be many reasons for not being able to do this well.

In my own experience, there is a vast difference in potency in sublingual forms of active B2 and B6, compared with swallowed forms, active or non active.

Finally here is a thread which summarises a lot of Rich's wisdom on results from Nutraeval tests. It may be helpful to you - forgot about it when I linked the other guides.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Other things can block aconitase - eg it can be poisoned by heavy metals, it is also disabled by nitric oxide and peroxynitrile, ie it is also susceptible to nitrosative stress.
Other things can block aconitase - eg it can be poisoned by heavy metals, it is also disabled by nitric oxide and peroxynitrile, ie it is also susceptible to nitrosative stress.

This seems to be the heart of the matter. Oxidation=inflammation which (I'm guessing here) causes a suppressed immune system which in turn allows for opportunistic virus' and bacteria to take hold leading to an autoimmune response. And so the vicious cycle repeats. Or maybe the virus' and bacteria (or any kind of trauma induced stress) caused this cascade to start? Could inflammation be the cause for the reduction of good antioxidant producing bacteria in your gut?

So I guess the question is what does one do to support SOD function? NCBI says you need cu,mn, zn. Glutathione is pretty important. Would increasing these be a start? I heard supplementing with glutathione is not good. Don't remember why. Maybe because it can convert to glutamate?

My metal test showed slightly elevated cadmium. The rest seems fine. Will confirm again with HMT.

Sigh...this is so complicated. I only understand half of the articles in NCBI. I don't speak "science".
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
It has been proposed that the [4Fe-4S]2+ aconitase is oxidized by superoxide, generating the inactive [3Fe-4S]1+ aconitase. In this reaction, the likely products are iron(II) and hydrogen peroxide. Consequently, the inactivation of m-aconitase by superoxide may increase the formation of hydroxyl radical (⋅OH) through the Fenton reaction in mitochondria.

This reaction was reversible, as >90% of the initial aconitase activity was recovered upon treatment with glutathione and iron(II). This mechanism presents a scenario in which⋅OH may be continuously generated in the mitochondria.

@alicec I read about the problems stemming from too much iron. While I wait for HMT results, should I supplement with glutathione? I'm already supplementing with QoQ10, NAC, curcumin, and resveratrol. I believe these are antioxidants and antiinflamatories.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Sigh...this is so complicated

Unfortunately it is complicated. Good practitioners can be invaluable in interpreting tests but they are rare. Mostly we have to stumble through ourselves.

Treat the test results as a series of potential clues to guide changes in things like diet and supplements, but in the end it will be trial and error and your own body's response that will be the final determinant.

The most outstanding results in your test do seem to be the very elevated phe and the very poor Kreb's cycle. Unfortunately the rest of the test doesn't give obvious insight into why these are going wrong.

Maybe a series of things are making small contributions rather than one big problem (though I definitely think it is worth keeping in mind the possibility of a genetic contribution to problems with PH and trying to rule this in or out).

Go through your results carefully, looking at results which are maybe normal but at either end of the range (lowish, highish), compare these with the guides, especially Rich's guide which I'm sorry I forgot initially.

This may give a bit more insight, then you are going to have to make a lot of guesses based on logic, even if test results don't particularly support it, then initiate supplement changes based on this logic and just see what happens when you try them.

For example, as we have already discussed, aconitase can be disabled by oxidative stress. On the face of it your GSH and cys levels are good, BUT serum and urine values don't necessarily reflect what is going on inside cells. A few other results could suggest there is an issue - highish lipid peroxides, lowish pyroglutamic acid (this reflects a regeneration mechanism for GSH) and lowish cystathionine (a precursor to cysteine).

The latter suggests a possible problem with B6 and or with supply of methionine and hence the methylation/folate cycle. Elevated sarcosine supports a possible problem with folate.

Other things suggest a B6 problem to me, particularly the non-existent AKG which is normally an abundant product in the cell from amino acid interconversions. B6 is tied up with B2 since active B2 is required to make active B6.

Aconitase can be blocked by nitrosative stress. This links in with the BH4 issue since it too is disabled by things like peroxynitrile.

The Kreb's cycle gives other clues about potential problems since there are several steps where metabolites feed in from outside the cycle - ie they don't entirely depend on previous steps.

We have already mentioned AKG. The next step, succinylCoA is also fed from outside, namely from oxidation of odd-chain fatty acids. Ultimately these form methylmalonylCoA which is converted to succinylCoA by the adenosylB12 dependant enzyme methylmalonyl CoA mutase. Even though your MMA marker is normal (it becomes elevated when this last enzymatic step isn't working properly), the fact that succinylCoA is virtually non-existent suggests that this step is something of an issue.

These are a few examples of how you may need to do more sleuthing. Also you will need a multi-pronged strategy.

You mentioned the possibility of digestive issues. This is something that should be addressed early - betaineHCl or dilute HCl, possibly plus pepsin should be tried, - maybe later you could think about pre and probiotics.

Anti-oxidant and anti-nitrosative strategies should be considered. Be careful with direct glutathione supplementation. Some people have benefitted but many are quite adversely affected. Precursors or indirect stimulators might be better. A well functioning methylation cycle can be important. Other mixed antioxidants might be helpful.

Martin Pall has written about nitrosative stress and come up with various strategies to address it. Unfortunately all the links I had to him no longer work, but here is one that summarises his thinking. Here are some of the products he developed. Here is another link which gives a lot more background and includes thinking of others as well as Pall. Towards the end there is discussion of strategies to overcome.

Multivitamins can be misleading. We think we are getting everything but the combination might not be right for you.

You may need to reconsider your B vitamin strategy and look at individual vitamins, possibly in active form. At the very least I would urge you to try sublingual active B2 and B6. These are not expensive and worth a trial to see if they make any difference. Even though the dose per pill is relatively small they are very potent but easy enough to cut into 1/2 or 1/4s.

Folate (methylfolate is a potent peroxynitrile scavenger) and the active B12s are worth trialling also. Here is a post I made recently on the subject.

Finally you may have something of a mineral imbalance. Magnesium and zinc are high but copper and manganese are low. Molybdenum is not measured but could also be relevant. Maybe you need to consider a balanced trace mineral preparation.
 
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Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Thank you so much for your help! It took me 2 days to read and re-read the links you gave me.im looking forward to reading the other posts on Medical Insider. The more I read, the more I realize how little I know. It's not a matter of throwing supplements at the problem as over supplementing can present problems of its own. It's hard to know what to do. For instance, l-arginine increases NO but I have low arginine. Should I supplement or not?

Oxidative Stress Markers:

Glutathione- 1,191 (>=669). This seems normal but as you said, my low pyroglutamic acid may indicate a problem with regeneration of GSH. Does this mean my GSH stores are being depleted? Does this take place in the cells?

Lipid Peroxide- 7.5(<=10). This seems to be an indication of oxidative damage to cell membranes. Nitrosative stress? I've been supplementing with lecithin. Would this help until I address inflammation/infection?

(though I definitely think it is worth keeping in mind the possibility of a genetic contribution to problems with PH and trying to rule this in or out).

I mailed my 23 and me yesterday.

You may need to reconsider your B vitamin strategy and look at
individual vitamins, possibly in active form. At the very least I would urge you to try sublingual active B2 and B6. These are not expensive and worth a trial to see if they make any difference. Even though the dose per pill is relatively small they are very potent but easy enough to cut into 1/2 or 1/4s.

I don't have a B Vitamin as yet. Will read Rich's and Fredd's protocol and decide. I agree, I need to take a more aggressive approach.

Be careful with direct glutathione supplementation. Some people have benefitted but many are quite adversely affected.

Is this because of detox?

It's funny you should mention BetaineHCL. Just ordered it a couple of days ago. I'm also taking bile salts. My pacreatic elastase is in the high but should I take this as well?

I just "fired" my functional doc and have found (I hope) a good CFS doc. She has started me on an antiviral (Valcycovit) to be followed by herbal antivirals to address my EBV. She told me that the effect may be 50/50 but it may help in relieving some of my toxic load. She gave me a supplement ( for my liver) consisting of milk thistle, papaya and yarrow leaf as well as a herbal tea with burdock root, alkanet root, black walnut, agrimony, lemon balm and plantain leaf. I was impressed with a MD who also embraced alternative medicine. She offered IV infusions of B vitamins, minerals, and GSH but I declined.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
@alicec ive been "sleuthing" as much as my disfunctional brain is able. I think part of the problem is that I haven't been given all the pieces of the puzzle, my oxalate and homocysteine levels for example. My EBV seems to be an issue with my new CFS doc so I'm sure there's oxidative stress as well. I have very low bacteria count and diversity in my gut as well as inflammation so that needs to be dealt with. I just found out that B vitamins are made in the gut. As far as my high Phe, the only "remedy" I could find was going on a low protein diet and supplementing with BH4 (Phe +BH4=tyrosine ).

I think the first step is going on a B vitamin protocol. Do you think the Douglas Labs B Complex that Freddd recommends will provide the necessary B 2,3, and 6s to unclog my Krebs cycle? Will supplementing with higher amounts cause any paradoxical effects?

Can you recommend a good serum OAT test?
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@Jimbo39 You might want to consider B12 oils which provide steady absorption through the skin, instead of taking oral supplements if you have gut absorption issues. Check the threads here on B12 oils.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
You might want to consider B12 oils which provide steady absorption through the skin, instead of taking oral supplements if you have gut absorption issues. Check the threads here on B12 oils.

I'm not sure I have absorption issues. When I add a supplement I seem to feel its effect, 5HPT for example. I'm already taking B vitamins thro Dr Amy's All in One and usually an hour after I take it my pee is kind of orangish. Is this a indication of absorption? I will check out those threads. Does absorption take place in the small intestine or the colon?
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@Jimbo39 Information consolidated from Freddd's conversations according to PR members:

stars-shower-smiley.gif

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-understanding-of-freddds-protocol.1697/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-understanding-of-freddds-protocol.1697/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/a-guide-to-freddds-protocol.1618/

More comments, links to FP from aturtles, April 2015:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...dd-posts-on-his-experience-aka-protocol.1742/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/stepping-into-the-freddd-methylation-protocol.1751/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...b12-protocol-basics.10138/page-27#post-748230
 
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Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
pee is kind of orangish. Is this a indication of absorption?
Pee color is not an indicator of absorption, just excretion which is natural, observed by all taking B vitamins - not to worry. Take enough B2 and you will notice the color changes to a flourescent light green. But generally the B vitamins need to be taken together. Absorption is a serious issue for many. Just because we eat it doesn't mean we absorb it.

Sublingual (under the tongue) slow dissolving tablets or squirts were developed to increase absorption as many older folks or those with damaged guts don't have cofacters in place for adequate gut absorption like intrinsic factor. However many sublinguals have sweeteners that some feel are rotting their teeth, don't like the taste or the mouth stains. B12 oils evolved as an even better solution to the absorption problem in that one can use it on the body skin where it seems to provide smooth absorption and a steady multi hour supply.

However many folks are still missing some cofactor nutrients to get the body machinery working. With B12 you also need selenium, molybdenum and iodine in order to make FAD the functional version of B2 which facilitates B12 use. Many times a B12 deficiency is actually a B12 + B2 + iodine + selenium deficiency. However, you can overdo minerals and end up in trouble.

Many folks are missing iodine and selenium in their diet. Brazil nuts are very high in selenium and one or two a day should be enough. Iodized table salt is/was the major source of iodine in the USA diet. But many folks heeding warnings to avoid salt and don't use it miss out on the fact that food manufacturers don't generally use iodized salt, but do use brominated processes, which can displace iodine as both are halides. There are some who supplement iodine which is supplied in different chemical forms and with different effects.

@Jimbo39 The adrenals tend to keep stores of selenium and vitamin C among other things for their uses. With my own adrenal issues I was most greatly helped by using a nutritional approach, in particular using Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder,which is extracts of porcine glandulars, the time release vitamin C and the Super Adrenal Stress Formula, a multi nutrient vitamin/mineral tabs which you can view here:
https://adrenalfatigue.org/severe-adrenal-fatigue-protocol/
https://adrenalfatigue.org/supplements/supplements-for-adrenal-fatigue/
I avoided their herbal due to it being an alcohol extract and got the herbs elsewhere in oral cap form. This allowed me to rebuild my adrenals. (No I don't get any kickbacks for saying this. This is just my person experience of years of use. I bought and tried the products after doing my own research.) However I eventually discovered that I still needed to add in iodine as this isn't found in the pack and it was missing in my diet.

Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder porcine glandular extracts are processed to remove all hormones, a very good thing. Some companies sell glandulars with the hormones not removed for a cheaper price, but they are way to stimulating and I think may end up damaging the body. I found this a much more sane approach than mainstreet Med's approach - standard Endo protocol- to wait until you fail the adrenal stim test which means that your adrenals have pretty much shut down, with the result that you will be put on steroid drugs for life - without which one will quickly die. Corticosteroids have horrible body damaging effects in the long term (considered to be over 3 weeks) but they can be vital to keep one alive in the short term and are a good quick rescue in some deadly situations.

I know the horrors of corticosteroids, as I suffered on them for 8 years. They knock down the immune system so you get all the diseases and have difficulty fighting and surviving them; they give you hypercholesterolemia, they give you not only osteoporosis but osteonecrosis (bone death), and so much more...especially the way they cause the adrenals to atrophy and shut down without which we quickly die...
 
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Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
B12 oils evolved as an even better solution to the absorption problem in that one can use it on the body skin where it seems to provide smooth absorption and a steady multi hour supply.

This does seem the most sensible way to go. I've already ordered the sublingual as per Freddd protocol. Are the oils in a cobalamin form that Freddd recommends? ill have to read the B12 oil thread when I'm able.

With B12 you also need selenium, molybdenum and iodine in order to make FAD the functional version of B2 which facilitates B12 use.

Freddd mentioned selenium but not molyb or iodine. How much of each is recommended?

But many folks heeding warnings to avoid salt and don't use it miss out on the fact that food manufacturers don't generally use iodized salt, but do use brominated processes, which can displace iodine as both are halides.

Is this how you get your iodine intake?

With my own adrenal issues I was most greatly helped by using a nutritional approach, in particular using Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder,which is extracts of porcine glandulars, the time release vitamin C and the Super Adrenal Stress Formula, a multi nutrient vitamin/mineral tabs which you can view here:

I know I have adrenal issues. I was forced to retire early so my finances are limited until SSI kicks in. I may have to drop some supplements to fit this in. I know some are redundant and others are probably unnecessary.

BTW, thank you for the links on understanding Freddd's protocol.