OAT, PLEASE INTERPET

[Jimbo39]

I told @alicec I'm just throwing things at the wall to see if they stick. This may be a good example of stumbling on to something:

I started taking oxymatrine in the hope of reducing my EBV load. When I posted this on the AV thread, @Hip mentioned it's generally used to treat entroviruses. Duh. I figured since I paid for it I might as well keep taking it. My gut has been feeling better than I don't know when. Much better than the benifits I got from colostrum. There's definitely something going on. I can't seem to attribute it to anything else. I increased my B12 so maybe that's it. I don't know.

 

[Hip]

Have you been tested for enteroviruses (coxsackievirus B and echovirus), @Jimbo39, using the right tests? Dr Chia found that only the highly sensitive plaque-reduction neutralization tests performed at ARUP Lab and Cambridge Biomedical were able to reliably detect chronic enterovirus infections.

If you are responding to oxymatrine, it may be that you do have an enterovirus infection. What brand of oxymatrine did you buy, and how many tablets are you taking each day? People taking oxymatrine for ME/CFS usually slowly increase their dose to up to 6 tablets a day.

 

[Jimbo39]

@Hip No I haven't been tested for entroviruses. I'm taking 1 White Tiger 1,000 mg tablet a day.

 

[Hip]

I'm taking 1 White Tiger 1,000 mg tablet a day.

The White Tiger tablet contains 200 mg of oxymatrine, which I think is going to be similar to amount of oxymatrine found in Dr Chia's Equilibrant oxymatrine formulation.

There is a transcript from a Dr Chia video on oxymatrine in this post.

 

[Jimbo39]

Wait! I started on a regimen @Mary recommended to help me sleep:

150 mg 5-HPT
1000 niacin
500 inositol
200 l-theanine
1000 l-glycine
3 melatonin

If this is helping, thank you Mary!

Thanks for the link @Hip 6000 mg/day seems like a lot.

 

[Hip]

Thanks for the link @Hip 6000 mg/day seems like a lot.

There is a specific protocol that Dr Chia uses for oxymatrine. People build up to around 6 oxymatrine tablets a day over around 6 weeks. In 25% of cases (according to Dr Chia), this stimulates the immune system to fight off the infection, leading to major improvements in ME/CFS. Though Dr Chia says oxymatrine should not be taken by people with a history of autoimmune conditions.

 

[Jimbo39]

@Hip Interesting. So oxymatrine isn't really an AV. It works by stimulating the immune system.

 

[Hip]

@Hip Interesting. So oxymatrine isn't really an AV. It works by stimulating the immune system.

That's right, oxymatrine is thought to shift the immune system more into its Th1 mode, where it better fights viruses. Some patients can feel worse and even fevery as the immune system kicks into action, but with oxymatrine this is generally seen as a good sign, and after a few weeks of feeling worse, when you come out the other side of this period, that's when you find you have made major improvements.

Though as mentioned, this only works for around 25% of patients (although another 25% will get minor improvements from oxymatrine; and 50% experience no benefit). If you do get these improvements, you need to keep taking the oxymatrine, else you will revert. But that is a small price to pay for greatly increased health.

 

[Jimbo39]

So @Hip Why wouldn't oxymatrine work for EBV, other viruses as well as bacterial infections? Would stimulating the immune system too much lead to any autoimmune problems?

 

[Hip]

So @Hip Why wouldn't oxymatrine work for EBV, other viruses as well as bacterial infections? Would stimulating the immune system too much lead to any autoimmune problems?

Well I have always assumed that in the informal oxymatrine study that Dr Chia performed, he focused on patients with enterovirus-associated ME/CFS. If you look at the transcript of the Dr Chia video on oxymatrine treatment in this post, you see some cases where he tests for enterovirus before and after oxymatrine treatment.

But I guess Dr Chia may have included patients in his study with other viruses. So maybe it does work for EBV. But I really don't know.

@halcyon, what do you think? Might the immunomodulatory effects of oxymatrine be effective for ME/CFS triggered by viruses other than enterovirus?

 

[halcyon]

@halcyon, what do you think? Might the immunomodulatory effects of oxymatrine be effective for ME/CFS triggered by viruses other than enterovirus?

Seems like it might. It has been used to treat hepatitis B so it might have some broad spectrum antiviral effects, either directly or indirectly through immune modulation, or both. The other ingredients in Equilibrant might also generally be helpful as they stimulate NK cells and inteferon gamma release, etc.

 

[Mary]

Wait! I started on a regimen @Mary recommended to help me sleep:

150 mg 5-HPT
1000 niacin
500 inositol
200 l-theanine
1000 l-glycine
3 melatonin

If this is helping, thank you Mary!

Thanks for the link @Hip 6000 mg/day seems like a lot.

@Jimbo - I don't know if this regimen is helping, hopefully it's not hurting you! Something just occurred to me: the 5-htp helps the brain produce serotonin. Well, you're taking paxil, so you need to keep an eye out for symptoms of serotonin syndrome. You'll have to look them up, I've never had it but I know it can get severe. I just don't know if combining the 5-htp with paxil may result in too much serotonin. Although I do think the 5-htp may help with reducing your paxil dose. But again I don't have experience with that.

re your BP - arginine is also a vasodilator and can help reduce BP. It also reduces cortisol. I took it once for 3 days and ended up completely wiped out, and I found my cortisol had gone too low, but not everyone reacts like that. And I just read it can help prevent reactivation of EBV. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12490409)
However, it can activate herpes simplex. It's a little confusing since EBV is a herpes virus. If you try it those are things to be aware of.

 

[Jimbo39]

I posted this in the cardiovascular forum but thought I'd post here as this has become a type of journal for me.

I did a little experiment to see how closely related blood sugar and high BP are. Last night I ate a bowl of ice cream. This morning my blood sugar reading was 140! Normally 100-110. My BP was 150/92. Normally 135-140/low 80's. This could be an isolated incident but it did bring about some concern of how long blood sugar levels can stay elavated and its resulting effects on BP.

 

[Jimbo39]

I just don't know if combining the 5-htp with paxil may result in too much serotonin. Although I do think the 5-htp may help with reducing your paxil dose. But again I don't have experience with that.

I don't think I have a concern with serotonin syndrome as it's quite low. You're right., it may help with my Paxil taper.
Thanks for the heads up concerning arginine. I have so much on my plate right now, it'll be a while before I consider supplementing with it.

After my ice cream experiment, I feel light headed, foggy brained, and slightly depressed. No more sugar. Easier said than done.

 

[Jimbo39]

I increased my abB12 and MB12 to FREDDD's recommended dose of 10000 and 5000 yesterday. I feel like I've been run over by a truck. It feels like I've got the flu: headache, dizziness, running nose, depression, sore throat, fatigue. On top of that, gut pain. Herxing?

 

[alicec]

I increased my abB12 and MB12 to FREDDD's recommended dose of 10000 and 5000 yesterday. I feel like I've been run over by a truck. It feels like I've got the flu: headache, dizziness, running nose, depression, sore throat, fatigue. On top of that, gut pain. Herxing?

Sounds like you need more folate. Try 3-4 times your current dose a couple of times and see if symptoms start to subside. If so you need to increase folate, perhaps not to that amount continuously but sufficiently so the symptoms don't return.

 

[Jimbo39]

Thanks @alicec I'll try it. I feel really bad. Going to hibernate.

 

[Jimbo39]

I feel much better today. I think folate was what I needed. I took 10,000 mg and about 5,000 mg niacin. The flu like symptoms are gone but I feel drunk/high. Could it be addressing inflammation in my brain? I wonder if MB12 causes heavy metal detox and if so, would I have an immediate reaction from it? Sigh, it's all guesswork.

I think I increased MB12 too quickly. I doubled it last week and again this week. Its obvious I needed more folate but maybe I need to build up other cofactors as well: magnesium, potassium, B2, B6, Seeking Health Trace Minerals.

One thing I'm convinced of: B12 is going to be vital to healing. If it can cause such a strong die off (assuming that's what it was) then it tells me the body is capable of healing itself given the right nutrients. It's just a matter of how much "healing" I can tolerate i.e. the liver's ability to detox. I wish I didn't have any responsibilities so I could just plow through and stay in bed until inflammation/infection is addressed.

@alicec what made you think folate was what I needed? What does folate do to counteract the symptoms I had? I'm going to supplement calcium. I realize now that my fear of calcium causing neuro excitotoxcity are unfounded.

 

[alicec]

what made you think folate was what I needed

My own experience plus things that Freddd has talked about. The flu-like feelings and run over by a truck description were a dead giveaway for me.

The symptoms are largely of folate deficiency as a result of increased need caused by increased B12. Freddd has described it in terms of refeeding syndrome, which seems a reasonable explanation.

 

[Jimbo39]

I wonder if they're just symptoms or if detox/die off was happening. I've been struggling with a sinus infection and yesterday my nose was running like crazy. Usually it's the body's way to rid itself of toxins.

I've doubled up on my liver support (milk thistle,papaya leaf, yarrow).

Really bad headache today