A New Decade of ME Research: The 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference 2016
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Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Jimbo39, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    @Chocolove Thank you so much for the link on sinus infections! I've been squirting my nose with saline solution but I can see now that it's woefully inadequate. A vaporizer to deliver essential oils deep into sinus cavities makes a lot of sense. What essential oils do you use? There were several different opinions on this subject.

    On a side note, you mentioned adrenal support because sinus infections can stress the adrenals. I have a problem with cortisol surges. Will taking adrenal support intensify this?
     
  2. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    For the sinus infection I used this combo of a couple of drops of each pure essential oil together:
    Oregano, juniper berry, clary sage, tea tree (NOW brand)
    Red thyme, rosemary, lemongrass, boswellia sacra (Aura Cacia brand)

    Using saline (always boil the water) to clean the sinus can be harsh and backfire if used too much. Salt can draw the water out of your tissues and make things worse. Still it is good to pass a safe fluid through to help wash out the crud that microbes are feeding on.

    (cortisol surges)
    Define adrenal support...;)

    Unfortunately when one is in deep stage adrenal fatigue, as Dr. Lam reminds every other paragraph, one should be watching for paradoxical responses to treatments - as in the opposite of normal effect. This may be dosage related as the body cannot handle a lot when overwhelmed and exhausted. Or it may be due to some other unknown mechanism...

    Both Dr. Lam and Dr. Wilson have long specialized in addressing the adrenal HPA axis issues. There are precious few who know much about that, although a few are beginning to learn.

    I took Dr Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder (porcine glandulars processed to remove the hormones) without any problematic stimulation. I have only tried this brand because I want to avoid glandulars that have hormones which would be stimulating. However, this is not something you can quickly quit, a long taper is required. It would need a long taper. However this cornerstone along with licorice root, and Dr. Wilson's Super Adrenal Stress Formula (a vitamin/mineral combo tailored to adrenal needs), additional magnesium glycinate, pantethine, and Dr.Wilson's vitamin C product saved my life when I went into adrenal crisis which can kill in minutes to days. I always keep these on hand. https://adrenalfatigue.org/severe-adrenal-fatigue-protocol/

    I did not take Dr. Wilson's herbal extracts because I wanted to avoid the alcohol. Instead I took Gaia brand adaptogens - Ashwagandha Root and Holy basil. I avoided Rhodiola root because it can be stimulating although when somewhat better it can be very helpful. However some have even had a bad reaction to Ashwagandha as benign as it is reputed to be.

    Phosphatidyl Serine can definitely help with cortisol surge and I take it in the evening along with chamomile tea.

    Stress triggers (physical or emotional) can cause cortisol surges so reducing those triggers really helps. Emotional stress can be alleviated using a combo of certain amino acids rather than Rx drugs, however using too much of say Tyrosine can be problematic and they need to be balanced, even more so if Rx SSRI or SNRIs are involved. Check out these briefs by Dr. Lam:
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/chemical-imbalance-afs-part-1/11208/
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/wired-state/11238/
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/glandulars-and-herbs-for-adrenal-fatigue-part-1/7544/

    BTW Dr Lam says "A normal thyroid Free T3 and Free T4 do not rule out secondary subclinical hypothyroidism due to pituitary or adrenal dysfunction." Helping out the adrenals will help out the thyroid.

    Exploring Dr. Lam's website and reading his books has helped me a lot.

    Zinc lozenges, specifically Cold Eeze without sugar, helps me a lot with nasal and oral infection.

    Make sure you get lots of vitamin C which is greatly needed by the adrenals and to fight off infection. There are time release versions which will help keep your levels up during sleep.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Candida and other fungi are normal gut constituents. We do indeed all have them and they play a role (not well understood) in the complex ecosystem of the gut.

    Culture based tests give a completely distorted picture of what is going on in the gut - they select for organisms which are easy to culture and miss most of what is actually there.

    Personally I would want a lot more evidence than 1+ on a stool test that candida was causing problems.

    I have had several stool tests where candida was not detected.
     
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  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Which stool test did you take?

    If it's the Doctors Data Comprehensive Stool Analysis is the +1 under the category of Dysbiotic Flora or one of the other categories?

    Everyone has candida, but the question is, is it overgrown?

    I have two different tests showing no candida overgrowth, confirmed by my doctor.

    On my Doctors Data test, it's blank under Bacteriology Culture/Dysbiotic Flora and Yeast Culture /Dysbiotic Flora.

    On my Metametrix GI Effects test, the categories of Opportunistic Bacteria, Pathogenic Bacteria, and Yeast Fungi all show either "negative", or "no clinically significant amounts".
     
  5. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    I guess I meant glandulars. Dr Lam seems to imply that it should be taken only when absolutely necessary as it can lead to stimulation and "adrenal crisis." Should I see an endocrinologist? My cortisol test showed it to be within the boundaries tho it was upside down i.e. High at nite, low in the mornings. On the other side, I failed Dr Lam's AFS test. I want to order Dr Wilsons Adrenal Rebuilder but I suppose I'm kinda scared of any side effects.

    This sounds scary. What were your symptoms? Does this mean your Adrenals were practically shut down?

    I take PS and PC. Haven't tried the tea.

    Tell me about it. This election left me an emotional wreck. Let's just say my side lost.

    Which book would you recommend I read first?
     
  6. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    Would a DNA stool test reveal this?

    What other kind of evidence is there? Maybe a symptom-based test? Im not sure I have a candida problem. I certainly don't want to take anti-fungals if I don't have to. BTW, after a week of taking colostrum my tummy is happy tho not to its pre crash days.

    On another note, I really feel a B protocol is going to be vital for my recovery. I can see where B12, B2, and B6 are critical in the folate and Krebbs cycle. If you were to guess, why do you think B12 is so stimulating for me? Do you think it's because I'm methylating? Or detox? I'm determined to increase my dosage as soon as I'm feeling a little better.
     
  7. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    I had the Genova GI Effects and Stool Test.

    How would I know?
     
  8. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    A DNA based test, such as that offered by uBiome, American Gut and RedLabs, would detect the full range of bacteria in the gut (some present at extremely low levels might be missed).

    The uBiome test which I am most familiar with also reports archaea and at least sometimes the odd eukaryote.

    These tests are set up for detection of bacteria which are far and away the major gut constituents. Archaea can be detected by the same techniques.

    Somewhat different techniques are required for the other gut inhabitants (eukaryotes such as fungi and parasites as well as viruses) and until relatively recently, little attention was given to studying these minor constituents. That is starting to change though we still don't know a lot about the full range.

    American Gut offers a very expensive test which does sequence the entire gut microbiome, along with the more affordable standard test for bacteria.

    I was thinking mainly of symptoms.

    I believe there are also tests for anti-candida antibodies though I don't know much about them. OAT tests look for various fungal markers though I think you need to exercise caution about how these are interpreted.

    I'm sorry you have had this set back but it is exactly these sorts of experiments which help us to work out things which really make a difference. Unfortunately trial and error is the only way since we all have such individual responses.

    Really I don't know but this seems to be the case for a lot of people. I am more sensitive now than I was when I first started experimenting with B12 and folate and I don't really understand why.

    I don't find a lot of the claims about over and under methylation convincing. I am inclined to think the sensitivity relates much more to problems with the nervous system - eg irritated/inflamed nerves tend to over-react.

    When you do try again with the B vitamins just start low and increase slowly. For me at least the B vitamins, especially B12 and folate, have been the most helpful thing I have tried so I think they are worth persisting with.

    Others though haven't always had a good experience. Only you can decide how far you want to go with them.

    Sometimes though things that were once troublesome become less so after one has worked on some other part of the puzzle.
     
  9. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    I just ordered uBiome test kit.

    My OAT fungal markers are low so I'm not going to stress over this and continue with low sugar, carb diet.

    This is courious. What do you mean by sensitive? Is your current dose too stimulating? Maybe you're finally methylating properly and don't need as much?
     
  10. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    A very complicated and confusing puzzle indeed. I think @Chocolove has given me another piece. I didn't know how intertwined the HPA and NTs are. It's no wonder that those of us like @Mary and @caledonia who are tapering benzos and/or SSRIs are also dealing with cortisol/insomnia issues.
     
  11. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    @Jimbo39 Reducing stress is imperative to adrenal recovery. What form of magnesium are you taking? Some commonly sold magnesium supplements are useless due to the form. A good form of magnesium is a chelate of magnesium glycinate. Remember that in the U.S. magnesium deficiency is widespread and as a general rule our RDAs are set very low so you will need more for optimal health and even more to replete a deficiency.

    "One of the lessons taught by Mildred Seelig was a shortage of magnesium, particularly a relative deficiency compared to overwhelming amounts of calcium, increases the release of adrenal stress hormones (catecholamines) which further reduces magnesium levels. This results in vulnerability to physical stress (exertion, heat, cold, trauma, accidental or surgical trauma) or emotional stress (pain, anxiety, excitement or depression). [Journal American College Nutrition Oct 1994]

    This suggests magnesium should be front-line therapy for chronic or periodic bouts of anxiety or mental depression. The first published information regarding the beneficial effect of magnesium for mental depression was published 100 years ago. [Pharmacological Reports 2013]"

    The above quote comes from this very interesting article on magnesium:
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/11/bill-sardi/can-inadvertently-make-things-worse/
    Also, turn off the dang TV if it isn't a happy or educational enterprise. Avoid the news hysteria. Too bad you got pulled into the election hell. That was one thing well worth avoiding. It probably knocked down your immunity.
     
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  12. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    Very scary. Google adrenal crisis. Google Adrenal Insufficiency. Also google Addison's Disease. The mainstream medical establishment does nothing to assist in adrenal or HPA axis rehabilitation. They wait until the adrenals fail before they act and then what they do is put you on corticosteroids for life....a very horrible thing.

    You do not want to play around with failing adrenals. Cut out all sources of physical and emotional stress that you can to save your adrenals and your life.
     
  13. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    The dose I had once tolerated well became far too stimulating.

    I tried stopping and felt much worse. Eventually I stopped taking adenosylB12 and acetylcarnitine (these were the worst in terms of stimulation) and reduced the dose of methylB12 considerably. Folate doesn't cause problems - I can take any amount of that.

    I found a dose that I could tolerate and which gave some benefit but it was never a satisfactory solution. I always felt as if I needed more.

    I have been trying to work this out for some time now. I think it is primarily due to depletion of or excessive demand for other nutrients, mainly minerals, but also some b vitamins.

    Supplying LOTS of minerals and biotin and decent amounts of sublingual P5P and R5P is at least in part getting me back on track in that I can tolerate more methylB12 and feel better for it. I haven't broached the others yet.
     
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I looked at the sample report for that test. I had an earlier version of the test. It looks a lot different now.

    It looks like they're showing the levels of the bacteria whether they're overgrown or not. So it's the opposite of what I thought.

    Those tests are confusing to read. Can you get help from the doctor you ordered the test from? Whether it's your own doctor or an online direct labs sort of thing. It may be worthwhile to pay some one for a 20 minute consultation.
     
  15. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    I take Asutra mag oil (transdermal). It's mag chloride from an ancient seabed or something like that. I had a hard time tolerating oral mag.

    This is interesting. I read a high cal/mag can cause neuronal damage. Apperantly mag ions block neuron channels preventing cal ions from causing damage. I wonder if this would be true throughout the CSN?

    I have a hard time reading NCBI reports. (I don't speak science). From what I've read, mag deficiency seem to correlate with a lot of my symptoms. I have high BP. It's says low mag is vasoconstrictive. "High cal/mag favors blood coagulation." I have a high serum glucose. My doc called it thick blood. Is this the same as blood coagulation? If a mag deficiency has something to do with my high cholesterol it would come close to a "one theory to explain them all". I suppose it would be too good to be true.

    What are catecholamines? Apperantly they cause oxidative stress.

    How much mag do you take?
     
  16. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    As a medical researcher I'm sure you've been meticulous in documenting every change in your protocol. I've tended to take a shotgun approach which has hindered me from pinpointing certain reactions/responses. I need to accept the fact that this is not going to be an easy fix and a one size fits all approach isn't going to work given the complexities and differences we have physically. I'm beginning to feel FREDDD's protocol is more of a guideline and our responsibly is to tailor it to our bodies.

    When you say LOTS I'm guessing you take far more than provided in SeekingHealth Trace Minerals and Pure Encapsulations B-Complex as per FREDDD? If you don't mind me asking how much do you take? How do you know if you're deficient in something? Trial and error? It amazes me that certain people can feel when they're lacking something.

    On a side note: there's a popular thread on the discussion board touting the benefits of AKG as a vasodilator providing much needed blood for those of us who have vasoconstrictive conditions. This seems appealing to me not only for the benifits mentioned but because I'm lacking in it (<dl) and because it's directly downstream from the production of ATP in the Krebbs cycle. I know I have a problem with excessive glutamate and especially neuronal glutamate excitotoxcity. Can AKG revert back to glutamate?
     
  17. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    I am reading Dr Wilson's book: Adrenal Fatigue. Hope it will provide some tools in maintaining healthy adrenals.

    I ordered a diffuser and the essential oils you recommended for my sinus infection. I just happened to have some colloidal silver from when my Dad had a bacteria infection. I added a teaspoon to 100 ml water in my sinus washer bottle and squirted into my nose. I stung like hell but I've noticed a significant improvement. Weird, huh?
     
  18. Jimbo39

    Jimbo39 Senior Member

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    Yes, it's a culture based test. I'm not sure how accurate it is.

    I inadvertently (brain fog) got a health plan with a $6,000 deductible. As you know, that means I have to shell out $6,000 before my insurance kicks in. $35 copay is fine but when you have to pay $200 for an office visit it becomes exorbitant. Oh, will we ever get universal health care? I think not with this present regime and Big Pharma's influence. Will switch to a different plan in Jan but then I'll have to pay a higher monthly payment. What The....
     
  19. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Not necessarily. Sometimes it's just too much effort, or I get impatient, or I'm too brain fogged to know what to do next, etc

    Several years ago I stopped taking a B complex and started taking the individual components separately. This was mainly because I wanted to vary B6 and then B1 and biotin to deal with oxalate problems, as well as experimenting with the Freddd protocol.

    Later I experimented with different forms of B2. In all of this I never noticed the sensitivity that many have to B vitamins, nor did I find that B1 and B2 influenced my need for folate, as Freddd has observed.

    I did take quite high doses of B6 and biotin for a while (200 and 10 mg respectively) but once I had oxalates under better control, I cut these back. Roughly I've settled on doses of around 50 mg for B1,2,3,5,6, 1 mg biotin and varying amounts of folate and B12. I thought I had B vitamins pretty well covered.

    For several years I took this trace mineral preparation daily, with additional 25 mg zinc and 200 ug selenium. Also I used a fair bit of magnesium, both topical and oral.

    I thought I had minerals pretty well covered.

    More than 12 months ago several things started changing. I became sensitive to oral magnesium and stopped taking it (topical was ok) and the Freddd protocol became a lot less effective.

    I began casting around trying to work out the latter particularly since this had been a very helpful intervention for me. It really felt like something else was becoming limiting and I began to think about depletion of nutrients.

    The magnesium problem made me think about mineral imbalances and as a result of correspondence from another thread, I was persuaded to increase boron.

    This did have a magical effect (I regained the benefit of B12 and folate) for a while but this eventually petered out. I tried increasing other minerals with not much effect. Eventually trying calcium and boron together helped considerably and I began to think that my problem with magnesium actually reflected an inability to supply sufficient calcium. Sure enough, once I was supplementing calcium, I could tolerate the magnesium again.

    Somewhere around this time Freddd started writing about refeeding syndrome and this tied in with what I had been thinking about nutrient depletion.

    It was around this time too that I became increasingly sensitive to B12 and carnitine. Stopping made me worse and I eventually settled on moderate amounts of folate and methylB12 as something I could tolerate and at least gain some benefit from. I kept up the increased boron (3 x 3 mg daily) and calcium (3 x 175 mg daily) even though it didn't seem to be as effective as once.

    But things never felt right - I always felt I was missing something, but what?

    At various times I have tried increased trace minerals, especially copper and molybdenum, with some transitory beneficial effect, but nothing dramatic.

    My sensitivity to B12 and carnitine wasn't improving, I always felt like I needed more B12 but couldn't tolerate it and my brain fog and blurred vision were steadily getting worse.

    About a month ago I had a breakthrough which I am still working through.

    I began to think about biotin again, noticing that my nails, skin and hair were deteriorating a bit. Maybe I should go back to higher doses.

    To cut what is already a long story short, adding more biotin opened the floodgates. This had now become my most limiting nutrient.

    Currently I am taking 50 mg daily in divided doses. This has allowed the B12/folate to give me considerable benefit again, but then I quickly ran into the depletion problem again. Now I couldn't supply enough minerals, especially copper and molybdenum again, but also calcium.

    I have been taking 3 x 3 mg copper (as chelate), 1 mg molybdenum and 3 x 700 mg calcium daily. These made the most difference but I have added in 75 mg zinc (to balance copper), 10 mg manganese and 200 ug chromium, and continued the 3 x 3 mg boron.

    I only anticipate taking these huge amounts for a relatively short time - trying to replenish stores - and do intend to cut back - not sure when.

    I don't think I have any overt signs of mineral deficiencies and indeed the beneficial response is always the same - namely a considerable improvement in brain fog and blurred vision, plus some improved mood and energy. I think the minerals and B vitamins, especially biotin (but also B2 and B6 deduced from experiments with sublingual forms) are simply allowing folate and B12 to work better.

    The symptoms which trouble me are really partial methylation block caused by my body"s inability to get various nutrients to where they are needed. Other people might experience different symptoms depending on their own layers of need, and have difficulty supplying a different set of nutrients.

    Unfortunately trial and error is the only way to work it out.

    I feel confident that if I can overcome the nutrient depletion by very large doses for a while, my sensitivity to B12 and carnitine is likely to settle down and I might gain even more benefits.

    I'm not at that point yet.

    It can be converted to glutamate by two different types of enzymes, glutamate dehydrogenase and transaminases, using various other amino acids, eg alanine or aspartate.

    The first enzyme, which is theoretically reversible, actually runs in the opposite direction under conditions in eukaryote cells - ie it converts glutamate to AKG.

    Transaminase reactions where amine groups from one amino acid are transferred to AKG, thus forming glutamate, happen all the time and are an important part of nitrogen metabolism. They are reversible.

    Whether AKG supplementation would somehow increase the neurotransmitter glutamate is a much more difficult question to answer - probably impossible.. I did a quick google - found one study - which concluded that glutamate from the alanine transaminase reaction does not constitute the major intracellular pool of glutamate.

    I think you would just have to try AKG and see what happened.
     
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  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I hear you on the outrageous deductibles. My BF has a $5000 deductible otherwise we couldn't afford the monthly payments.

    Maybe you can sneak it in with your next doctor visit? Does your doc even know how to interpret this test?

    What I was hoping was that you had purchased the test from one of the online direct lab places and then you could get a 20 minute consult for $60 or so. You still might be able to even if you didn't purchase it from there, as long as they sell that test.

    The nurse practitioner at integrativepsychiatry.net is pretty knowledgeable (except for chelation). I see they do sell the GI Effects. Might be worth a shot to ask anyway. The worst they can do is say no.
     

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