The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Not so common supplements

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by heapsreal, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Racetams- piracetam, oxiracetam etc etc said to be cognitive enhancers that modulate neurotransmitters glutamate and acetylcholine. said to promote inter-hemispherical communication via corpus collosum. Commonly used by students for studying or anyone trying to improve memeory and memory recall, also used for dementia and alzheimers.

    Choline three main physiological purposes: structural integrity and signalling roles for cell membranes, cholinergic neurotransmission (acetylcholine synthesis), and a major source for methyl groups via its metabolite, trimethylglycine (betaine) which participates in the S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) synthesis pathways.

    Centrophenoxine aka meclofenoxate can be used as a source of choline/replacement of, cognitive enhancer, improves memory and mild stimulating properties. Also increases cellular membrane phospholipids. Stimulated glucose uptake by the brain. Lipofuscin is a build up of potassium in the brain, heart lung and skin cells, centro is said to help remove this build up.Commonly used as a nootropic/smart drug, dementia, alzheimers.

    Alpha GPC is a metabolite of choline that is said to be absorbed better and cross the blood brain barrier better then choline. supports brain function by directly increasing the synthesis and secretion of acetyl choline and protects neurons. Commonly used as a nootropic smart supplement and used with racetams to support their function.

    Choline CDP similar benefits to other choline type supps, said to be able to cross the blood brain barrier well.

    Huperzine A is an acetylcholinesterase inhibititor which slows the break. down of acetylcholine. It is also a NMDA receptor antagonist which can protect the brain from glutamate induced damage. Speculation that NMDA antagonists can help reduce benzo tolerance. So its another nootropic/smart supplement.


    Vinpocetine
    Vinpocetine is reported to have cerebral blood-flow enhancing and neuroprotective effects, and is used as a drug in Eastern Europe for the treatment of cerebrovascula disorders and age-related memory impairment.

    Vinpocetine is widely marketed as a supplement for vasodilation and as a nootropic for the improvement of memory. In other words, Vinpocetine may help support brain functions such as concentration and memory by activating cerebral metabolism.

    Vinpocetine has been identified as a potent anti-inflammatory agent that might have a potential role in the treatment of parkinsons disease and Alzeimhers disease.

    Sulbutiamine derivative of thiamine/vit b1 and more easily crosses the blood brain barrier then b1 itself. It is used to treat asthenia, chronic fatigue, improve ememory.

    Phenibut derivative of a naturally occurring inhibatory neurotransmitter gaba and appears to affect gaba b receptors. It is also classed as a nootropic and its tranquilizing effects are said to help reduce stress and anxiety, improve impaired sleep, reduce neuralgia's and has muscle relaxing qualities. Tolerance is said to occurr rapidly so use should be limited to once or twice a week.

    Picamilon combines niacin and gaba and is said to help gaba cross the blood brain barrier more effectively then gaba alone. Possibly activates gaba receptors producing calming properties. Also said to have vasodilation affects from niacin. Used for rehabilitation of stroke victims, asthenia, depression, alcohol detox, migraines and neuro infections. Its calming affect would be useful to improve sleep quality as well.


    The above are supplements and a quick google will help one find a source of these supplements. I think these types of supps can help us treat the neurological aspects of cfs/me.

    cheers!!!
     
  2. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    http://www.whatarenootropics.com/nootropic-list/

    While heapsreal was talking about some of these on chat the other day, I looked them up to see what he was talking about. Was very surprised -- okay, not completely -- to find several of the herbs I have successfully used to regain function. Looks like this class of supplements has something for everyone, mainstream or alternative.
     
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  3. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    God I wish phenibut did not have tolerance issues and TERRIBLE withdrawal symptoms, god that stuff is good; better than any benzo. Will be cycling off tramadol for a couple weeks as of today so might have to get it out again.

    Would not forget that creatine has cognitive benefits as well, shown to raise IQ and improve cognition in the elderly and that a good fish/cod liver oil can make a big difference in the success of using a racetam.

    Still waiting for my Oxi, must be lost in the mail or something.

    Good list BTW, the Vinpocetine sounds interesting, never even heard of it.
     
  4. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Well really mixed responses here Vinpocetine,

    http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23457-vinpocetine-ditch-it/

    Someone at the end of the thread also references than it can be anti-inflammatory, could be helpful for some people but would want to keep a close eye on how you react to it.

    Maybe this is some kind of message as well because the OP there mentions he is using tramadol as well and says it is a NMDA antagonist which is not good for cognition; I use it to settle the nervous sytem but maybe a break will not be a bad idea.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Maybe because the huperzine A is an NMDA antagonist and reduces benzo tolerance,maybe using it with phenibut could be a good thing.

    When i used phenibut afew years ago it was great stuff but it did stop working within a couple of weeks, i was also using it too often then as well but im thinking of getting some again soon and use it with huperzine, also hoping the huperzine helps with benzo tolerance in general.

    From memory i think recommended doses were like 500mg but i got no effects from that at all and eventually increased the dose to 2500mg until i got an effect and it was a very strong effect and lasted for almost 24hrs, i slept like rock and when i woke up i was still feeling very chilled, probably a weekend only supp i think.
     
  6. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Wow 2500mg is a lot. Maybe I am lucky, I can get good effect from about 300-400mg which gives me great focus, mental energy, great sleep and lasts about 12-16 hours. I normally do that dose on alternate days to avoid tolerance, daily use of 1g and above for a week or more could get you into a real sh*tty situation; withdrawal is horrendous for causing anxiety and edginess.

    Yeah a dose that large would be like twice a week, three times would be pushing it.
     
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I didnt have any withdrawal type problems from it. one day it stopped working so i just stopped it. Everyone is different i guess??
     
  8. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    If you were on a dose like that daily with no withdrawal you must be some kind of freak then, nearly all accounts I have read of use like that end in tears. Definitely some will tolerate it better than others though, some do not even get any benefit from it, same with so many drugs/supps I suppose.
     
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I think i am a freak. I think its strange that i required a large dose to get an effect but with prescription benzo's i use the minimum dose and have done for years with the help of my alternating different sleep meds benzo and non benzo meds. Even using doses of gabapentine at 600mg nightly for long periods i have been able to stop cold turkey with no withdrawal effects other then a return of symptoms i initially took the med for, leg pain/restless legs?? Although im lucky if i can sleep at all without some type of sleep med even though i use such low doses.
     
  10. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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    Are you talking about huperzine or phenibut here, ghostgum?
     
  11. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    The phenibut, might have been overstating how good it was there though but years ago when I was in a horrible state it really was helpful for mental energy, relaxing me and sleep.

    Have tried it again over the last week since taking a break from tramadol, it was ok, allowed me to focus for an extended period but did nothing for my problem neurological/cognitive symptoms which tramadol does. Did actually take about 600mg phenibut at about 5pm yesterday then 50mg tramadol 11am this morning, I think the carry over of the phenibut with the tramadol is pretty dam good; might experiment with this a little but I am not sure about taking them on top of each other.
     
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  12. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    There is some anecdotal stuff here on someone saying phenibut goes very well with tramadol, although the doses are completely ridiculous,

    http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/382518-potentiating-tramadol

    A few other mentions of it around the net as well. Not that I like the idea because it is well into the realms of self medicating but if it makes you functional what can you do?

    Interesting as well a few pages into that discussion there is mention of how bad it is to use tramadol if you are on an SSRI, dramatically increases chance of seizure. I know some around here can use either of these at any given time, so if anyone happens to be combining them, probably a very bad idea.
     
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    There are a few sights mentioning these things but like u mention arent tailored to helping an illness but getting high. We have to use that info in a smarter way to get benefits for us not just get us smashed but to improve our functionality. But its nice of them to experiment with rediculus dosages and report back so we can understand the effects.
     
  14. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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    hmm...ive been hovering over tramadol for a while. looks very sexy on wiki. Doesnt sound like a good long term option tho. Magicpharma doesnt stock it, doubt my doctor would prescribe it, cant ask you blokes for a SOURCE!.. guess i'll just google my way to success. Thats my cfs strategy as well.
     
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    If u have pain or chronic pain your doc should be able to prescribe it. I also think it helps us as it helps increase noradrenaline which helps with energy along with its pain killing effects. Cant help with a source, harder to come by on the net but maybe find with a google??
     
  16. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    I occasionally use piracetam and vinpocetine on the job with decent results and no side effects.
     
  17. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Took some phenibut this afternoon to chill out. I took one tsp about an hour ago, i was going to take 1000mg but after taking the tsp i realised that tsp is actually 2000mg, cfs brain doh! Not a problem as a few years ago this was the dose i was using but was thinking i would try a lower dose as i hadnt used it for so long. The powder taste absolutely disgusting, so i immediately after drinking this with a small amount of water and not wanting to experience the taste again, i started capping them. 'O' size caps contain approx 500mg of phenibut per cap thats when u compress the powder down into the cap.

    I started to feel the effects within 15 minutes, doesnt feel sedating to me at the moment one hour on, but i can see it helping with sleep?? it does mellow one out and im getting a light sweat across my forehead sort of like eating something spicy or abit like a niacin flush. Phenibut contains niacin which is suppose to help gaba cross the BBB, so it probably is a niacin flush.

    My past experience with phenibut is that it sort of has a dual reaction, the first mellows u out and lasts a few hours and 8 hours later(from memory) after sleeping i would wake up feeling sedated/groggy, so we will see what happens tomorrow.

    I have stopped the racetams and centrophenoxine at this stage and just using them as a one off when i need an energy boost. I think sometimes all we need to do is nudge our neurotransmitters in the direction we need with these supps to get them going, im starting to think continually taking them puts their effects into overdrive, especially with our neurological issues., I am also using phosphatidylserine at night to help with sleep and lower night time cortisol levels, but i have written another thread on that.
     
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I have had a couple of doses of phenibut in the last few weeks, so no regular use just very intermittent. I slept ok last night and at 11am had a headache and thought i would try some phenibut to chill me out and get rid of this headache which i used it for at the same dose(2000mg) a week ago. Today wow it smashed me!! I dont/cant sleep during the day and i just slept from midday to 5pm plus its even stranger to sleep that much after sleeping ok last night. Like a comatosed sleep, i liked it and more of it wouldnt go a stray.

    cheers!!!
     

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