Norwegian professor in biology supportive of PACE

[deleder2k]

Why does he have a problem with homeopathy when he thinks mind over matter stuff like the lightening process are valid therapies?

How is this better than homeopathy?

I don't think he endorses LP. He is having a hard time understanding ME, PACE and CBT. I am sure that he doesn't know much about this. The professor needs to be educated.

 

[Marky90]

OK, I will draft a short personal letter to Gundersen and the a response for the newspaper. I guess the letter may as well be in English but a translation for the paper might help.

Can`t thank you enough for this.

 

[green_monster]

Thank you Prof Edwards!

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Great, @Jonathan Edwards.

You can send your response to the newspaper as a private message to me. I'll have it translated quickly.

@deleder2k I have sent PM to you.

 

[TiredSam]

I don't think he endorses LP. He is having a hard time understanding ME, PACE and CBT. I am sure that he doesn't know much about this. The professor needs to be educated.

If he's open to reason then he could be a useful ally - there's no-one as passionate as a recent convert.

 

[Hip]

If he's open to reason then he could be a useful ally - there's no-one as passionate as a recent convert.

Indeed. And it should be noted that in the article Prof Kristian Gundersen says:

The demand for access to data is legitimate and should in one way or another way complied

 

[Marky90]

Indeed. And it should be noted that in the article Prof Kristian Gundersen says:

Ive been discussing with him for the whole day, and even though i pointed out multiple times that there was no objective measures in the PACE trial that showed improvement, he`s like "i don`t agree with that..".. Denial is not only a river in Egypt..

 

[Bob]

In ignorance writes Nina Kristiansen, Kristian Gundersen, Øyvind Østerud and Simen Gaure every week about what they consider inadequate research, embarrassed dissemination, ignorant politics or plain cheating.

That's a perfect subheading under which to introduce the PACE trial! The article went downhill from that point!

 

[Bob]

But patients should have special rights in assessing the causes of disease and treatment studies?

Erm, is this a trick question? Surely the answer is "yes"? Patents should have as many, or more, special rights as anyone else? (Especially if the patients are funding the research, which we invariably do, directly or indirectly!)

 

[Hip]

Denial is not only a river in Egypt..

I like that phrase!

 

[Kati]

Sounds like professor Gunderson has been bought by PACE authors. Perhaps Trudie Chalder recruited him in her latest visit to Norway ?

 

[Marky90]

I like that phrase!

If you really love it: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/05/11/denial-not-river/, full of exciting history as well

Sounds like professor Gunderson has been bought by PACE authors. Perhaps Trudie Chalder recruited him in her latest visit to Norway ?

That actually seems quite likely, at least in the sense that he thinks we should continue to test CBT and GET for ME/CFS, even though both PACE and FINE proved it did not work. Maybe we must try it 100 times? His argument was that as people can get blind and paralyzed due to mental reasons, then patients confined in the dark with ME/CFS could very well be mental too. He also pridely stated that "one don`t HAVE to agree with IOM", i replied that opinions dont account for much without studies to back them up. He then linked to a newspaper story about a patient that claimed ME was psychological, as evidence that not everybody agrees that ME is physical. I`m a bit at loss for words

 

[SilverbladeTE]

As I've pointed out before
Lot of people "need" Science as religion, they do, it's how we humans often "tick"
They need something concrete to be sure of in life, hence religious rote and dogma is such a big thing.

Like it or not, the Age of Enlightenment DID NOT CHANGE THIS
People are people....
It did encourage more open mindedness and practical experiment and when things proved useful, and usually ONLY when found profitable in some way, accepted (profit not just in financial ways but in practical benefit etc)

And people vet very caught up in their work and again need for certainty as they age, life is terribly scary
So people often become more more conservative and stubborn as they age

Hence some scientists have refuses to think outside their comfort zone, even Einstein did it, because he was Human. I'm no differentx lol I just understand this
Alas, sticking to "accepted wisdom" often damns victims to suffering when it comes to some areas such as Medical science, history is full of it and rarely ever have the blinkered arseholes ever been publicly prosecuted or shamed for it while alive

And, power money and politics have lot to do with medical science, proof of this the Eugenics abomination and Lysenko and the mad Cold War experiments both sides got up to
So, it is a PROPAGANDISED arena
Proof is in the huge number of fraudulent studies, and things like the Science Media Centre

So what happens is even well meaning people can be blinded by having their biases supported by propaganda and fraud
And those biases are emphasized in the media
Any serious event the media damn will NOT represent the facts and varied opinio to you to consider
No
They will always heavily bias it towards Their Master's Voice
BBC, Murdoch's obscene empire, etc
Often entirely misquoting people or taking it out of context

Gulags, gas chambers and jackboots are to obvious, would cause rebellion
Orwell got it wrong
It's not a boot smashing into a face eternally
It's a sociopathic school marm telling people they have been naughty and should listen to what she says, while much of the evidence against her statements is put in hard to reach places, not hidden no that would be obvious, just difficult and anyone who digs for it gets marked into the "naughty person's file" and ridiculed for being "tin foil hat"
School marms don't do such things! They do if they have the soul of Ilse Koch

 

[Justin30]

Just another irritant....@Kati said what I was thinking....I wonder how many the psych community like Wessley and Co has contacted to try and gain support....

I want to see this study burned and people pay for their actions.....

Maybe if he is a professor of Biology..he should do a little biological research as to why we are sick the way we are.......

 

[Sean]

If you can't spot the problems with PACE, we're not your peers, we're your superiors.

 

[Kati]

David Tuller confronting the professor on twitter:

davidtuller (@davidtuller1)
2016-04-21, 5:49 PM
@KristianGunder @astridprivat @evatonheim @jarottingen Patients could get WORSE on primary outcomes yet be "recovered." Totally absurd

davidtuller (@davidtuller1)
2016-04-21, 5:53 PM
@KristianGunder @astridprivat @evatonheim @jarottingen 13 % were "recovered" on primary outcomes AT BASELINE. You think that's OK? Wow!


For the norwegians speakers, the conversation on twitter is in that language, I'd be curious what is being said.

 

[Forbin]

He also pridely stated that "one don`t HAVE to agree with IOM", i replied that opinions dont account for much without studies to back them up. He then linked to a newspaper story about a patient that claimed ME was psychological, as evidence that not everybody agrees that ME is physical. I`m a bit at loss for words

Yes, I must admit that it is hard to know which to give greater weight: the statement by the remarkably circumspect Dr. Ian Lipkin that the 600+ patient/control Columbia study - published in Science Advances, a journal of the the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) - showed that the evidence for immunological dysfunction in ME/CFS was, in Lipkin's words, "unequivocal," - or a newspaper story that claimed that the disease was psychological.

I mean, who to believe?

 

[Sean]

I mean, who to believe?

Decisions, decisions.

Can I call a friend?

 

[Cheshire]

No hope for this guy...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/723395937104601091

If you criticise the PACE trial, you are an activist hence you're wrong.

Ive been discussing with him for the whole day, and even though i pointed out multiple times that there was no objective measures in the PACE trial that showed improvement, he`s like "i don`t agree with that..".. Denial is not only a river in Egypt..

Where are they then? Really looks like a mantra of some kind: "I don't agree with that, I don't agree with that" If you repeat enough time, reality will change. Power of mind over matter...

When some people become MD, they think they suddenly can't be wrong and are masters of science. When they start to use snake oil merchant arguments, a lot of people don't notice, because they are "doctors", they studied a lot, they are supposed to be rational. These people are very dangerous, because they look so sure of themselves.
There's really a lack of scientific education and reasonning in medical schools but more generally in society. We should be taught to be critical, such claims would be questionned and ridiculed.


Really reminds the reactions against Galileo. People do not want to look in the telescope.

 

[TiredSam]

Yes, I must admit that it is hard to know which to give greater weight: the statement by the remarkably circumspect Dr. Ian Lipkin that the 600+ patient/control Columbia study - published in Science Advances, a journal of the the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) - showed that the evidence for immunological dysfunction in ME/CFS was, in Lipkin's words, "unequivocal," - or a newspaper story that claimed that the disease was psychological.

I mean, who to believe?

In such cases I always assume it's 50:50 and the truth must be somewhere in the middle. Saves me having to switch my brain on.