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Non-Standard Anti-Anxiety Treatment

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hip, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. antherder

    antherder Senior Member

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    hensue,

    Sorry to hear about your son losing his friend. He has so much to deal with.

    Often it can be the foods we crave, that we are allergic/intolerant to, which makes me wonder if maybe he has Celiac's Disease, or is gluten intolerant. Low energy, infections and low weight are all symptoms...of course they are symptoms of lots of things... Most doctors should know about gluten issues these days...if they have any level of competency... Celiac's causes B12 deficiency and iron deficiency. A friend of mine was very ill and went undiagnosed for 6 years, being told he was probably just "depressed". I don't know how much gluten would affect your son's anxiety, but gluten is a poison to those who can't tolerate it, as any food can be.

    I understand how frustrating it must be for you not being able to convince him about diet and supplements. Hope you have some luck trying to get him to read about some of this stuff.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    "Swanson" supplements are often a good choice, as are "NOW" vitamins. I often buy my supplements eBay or Amazon, where you can generally find good prices. Buying online is useful for CFS people who cannot get out much, as the goods are delivered to you, rather than you needing to go out to buy them.
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    See also this: The Wonders of Prebiotics. Prebiotics helped a GREAT deal with my dire anxiety state.

    Note that the above-recommned supplements of grape seed extract and propolis have some minor antibacterial effects on the good bacteria in the gut, but they should be OK to take (probably best to take them at a different time to any probiotics taken, if you are taking probiotics as well as the prebiotics).
  4. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Hi Hip and others - I've been folllowing this thread pretty hard because I recently about 2 months ago really started having anxiety, along with a small jump in my blood pressure. I have ran across another product that might be more of a co-treatment than direct anti-anxiety effect. I think Martin Pall has done a couple of studies on it, but couldn't find them, and I found the attached link http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/nutrients_ecklonia.html that gives a pretty good overview of the product. The product I'm looking at is "Ecklonia Cava Extract" and here is the link. One of it's drawbacks is that it is a patented product (Seanol) and there seems to be some difference of opinions out there on the exact dosage that some products are stating. This can be dealt with though with some research I believe and it tends to look like it might be a little pricey, but then again it looks like it would help our situations based on all the described evidence for it. If someone could check it out if they have time and feel like it and let me know what you think would be much appreciated. Thanks
  5. Lala

    Lala Senior Member

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    Has anyone used high dose vitamin C therapy against anxiety? I had quite success with it. It is my favourite thing. It takes few hours to feel significantly better, but one must use many many grams to get saturated. As much as possible and buffered C is better for this approach. Many bugs produce many toxins and vitamin C neutralises it. So if that is the reason of our anxiety or depression, this can help.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Funnily enough, Lala, high-dose vitamin C was the first thing I found that worked a little for my hyper anxiety. I used to take 5 grams of vitamin C in a large glass of water, 3 times a day. My mental state at that time was pure hell, a Dante's Inferno of constant torture. Vitamin C, plus some transdermal magnesium took the edge off this dire state a bit, but only a bit.

    I tried SSRI drugs for my anxiety state, but they made me feel truly terrible: SSRI's put me into an intense suicidal mood (SSRI's are known to precipitate "suicidal ideation" in a small subset people, and I turned out to be in this unfortunate subset). Within a hour of taking just one SSRI tablet, I had this intensely bad suicidal ideation trip lasting for half a day. I tried one more tablet some weeks later, and got exactly the same effect (I understand SSRI's can work well for a lot of people with anxiety disorder, but they do not work for me).

    I kept experimenting with other supplements, to see if I could find some other way to treat this anxiety disorder.

    After some time, I figured out (by trial and error) that the anti-inflammatory supplements (described at the beginning of this thread) worked pretty well for me, and I switched to using these for a long time.

    Then I started to hypothesize that some gut or kidney infection was influencing my mental state, creating this biochemically-caused anxiety (I get a recurrent kidney infection, and have IBS symptoms, possibly due to SIBO - Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth). So I went through a lot of antibiotics, just to test them, plus dozens herbal and essential oil supplements that have antibacterial effects. I got some slight improvements in my anxiety from antibiotics / antibacterial supps, but not much. And they did not help my gut/kidney infections all that much. I tried some probiotics at one stage too, but these had little influence in general.

    Finally, more recently, I started experimenting with high dose PREbiotics (not probiotics), and remarkably, these have probably had the greatest impact so far in tackling my anxiety. I would almost say that I am am now cured of this anxiety (but not cured of chronic fatigue syndrome, although my energy levels and brain fog have also improved with these prebiotics). I have read studies that indicate that prebiotics and probiotics can help eliminate recurrent kidney infections, even where potent antibiotics have failed. So it seems that fixing your gut can improve your kidney health, quell long-term infections, and in my case, fix my desperately-mlafuncitoning brain biochemistry. You would not have thought this possible, but there are substantial gut-brain connections. Infection in the gut leads to gut inflammation, and there is research that indicates this gut inflammation then remotely triggers brain inflammation, thereby generating the anxiety state biochemistry. Anyway, in summary: I highly rate taking high-dose prebiotics.

    Having been stuck in that Dantean Hell of unrelenting anxiety for about 5 years, now that I seemed to have escaped this anxiety state, I want to pass on this treatment info, in the hope that it may help others in this situation. I can live with fatigue, brain fog, and all the other tribulations of CFS (although I don't of course want to); but severe anxiety is hell.

    I would suggest that anyone with anxiety that has resisted treatment try the anti-inflammatory supplement approach, and/or the prebiotics approach; you can use both approaches together.

    PREbiotics work much better than probiotics, in my view. I understand that very often probiotics don't even make it through the stomach. Prebiotics are a much more effective way to boost your good bacteria: they help feed the good gut flora, and starve out the bad gut flora. You will have to take prebiotics long term, to maintain benefits, but they are quite cheap.

    Also, anyone subscribing to the gut dysbiosis theory of CFS would do well to try high-dose prebiotics (with perhaps some probiotics too, for good measure), rather than antibiotics.



    I tried Ecklonia cava extract a few years ago, and I found it was vaguely helpful in my case, but not dramatically. It does have a good reputation for treating fibromyalgia especially, as well as CFS and anxiety. However, due to its high price at the time, I only took small doses of EC. Perhaps larger doses would have been better. I have noticed that EC is getting cheaper now, however. Swanson for example now do Ecklonia cava extract for around $6. I might try EC again at some point.
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have just found another individual who has also cured their Social Anxiety / Social Phobia, simply by repopulating their gut with good bacteria. In his case, he did it using megadoses of probiotics. Here is what he wrote:

    Megabiotics: Experimental Treatment for Social Anxiety / Social Phobia

    I am pleased that someone else other than me has also experienced this powerful healing effect of prebiotics/probiotics. It is clear that this prebiotic/probiotic approach does work miracles for other people too.

    My own account (post) of the amazing benefits of using prebiotics to repopulate your gut gut with good bacteria are here:

    http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?7976-The-Wonders-of-Prebiotics&p=129793
    Gestalt likes this.
  8. Resting

    Resting Senior Member

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    Thanks for this post Hip! I appreciate when people share what has helped them so others can benefit!
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So, it looks like you have at least 3 of these anxiety threads. I'm not complaining or anything. I know how easily threads get lost when there are so many.

    How does the homemade magnesium cream with Epsom Salts compare to using Magnesium Oil (magnesium chloride)? Also, anyone thinking of trying this who has sulfur issues should know that that Epsom Salts has sulfur in it.

    As far as the cream itself, I am trying to find something that is odorless. Some of the lotions that are advertised as "fragrance free" still have an odor from the ingredients. Would oil work? I have some refined coconut oil that is odorless. If it needs to be thicker I have some beeswax I can mix with it. I'm open to other suggestions and I don't mind buying something if that will work the best.

    Besides magnesium I'm thinking about making one with Glutathione and Tryptophan. Is it ok if I mix all them into one cream?

    Thanks
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Epsom salts is much better, because it does not sting or irritate the skin like magnesium oil usually does. Epsom salts is also available in any pharmacy, and is much cheaper that magnesium oil.

    You might find this post of interest too: Epsom Salts Spray Versus Magnesium Oil.

    You don't need to make up a cream. Just make a saturated solution of Epsom salts in water, and put this into a spray bottle. Then you can just spray this Epsom salts solution onto your skin, and rub in it. It dries within a minute or two.

    Should be fine, I would think. I often apply glutathione under the armpit area of skin; the skin there is thinner and I am guessing the glutathione is better absorbed there.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    DHEA, which also banishes anxiety, strongly inhibits TNF-alpha. I did not know that niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and I wonder if this would help allergies? I used to take it but now I take whatever comes with Fredd's protocol (well I take Thorne Basic B and no extra niacinamide). I had heard niacinamide is very good for diabetics. I used to take a separate niacinamide pill and forgot all about that. I had to streamline out the likes from the needs.
  12. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I am supposed to have sulfur issues since I have 2 CBS homozygous defects and I have never found any dietary source of sulfur to be a problem for me (I eat an egg every day, I take a cruciferous veggie pill everyday, I take a garlic pill every day, I take milk thistle pill often, I eat mustard, I can eat 80g protein a day, etc). However I cannot sit in a tub of Epsom salts more than 10 minutes. I never knew why. It makes me feel bad. It's like super-dehydrating to me or something. To me it feels like I am losing minerals instead of gaining them. I'm fine when I get out though. Huh.

    I have magnesium oil and never noticed any diff between that and my cal-mag pill (citrate forms) except for "mess" factor. My doc gave me the magnesium oil for my bp but I control it fine w/o it. I would not feel safe trying to control glutamate toxicity with magnesium...it does not sound like a stable way...ammonia is going to keep stripping off the magnesium from the NMDA receptors and then you are at the mercy of the amount and timeliness of replacing it. I mean if you dose magnesium once and you create ammonia continuously, are you going to have magnesium in your system to take care of it or will the excess after that one time dose be excreted and not there when you need it later? The reasons I know of that magnesium is useful for are lowering blood pressure and increasing energy. NMDA receptor problems destroy brain cells and are nothing to play with. I think you have to stop the ammonia production. I fix my CBS defects with testosterone (from DHEA). If the ammonia is from eating too much protein then just stop that. if it's from the excretions of a parasite of some sort then focus on killing that parasite. IMHO these are safer strategies.
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks. On many of the commercial transdermal creams they say to rotate which body parts you apply it to. Is that necessary?
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Since I posted that (a year ago?) I've learned that niacinamide is considered a 'methyl sponge' -- in other words, it can use up methyl groups quickly, so that if one is doing the methylation protocol, those supplements may need to be adjusted/increased in order to find the right balance -- all depending of course on one's genetics.

    I tried the niacinamide last year for a bit, but it just made things worse, but at the time, I hadn't figured out what methylation supps I needed. I'm doing better now with folinic, TMG, a little methylfolate, a little methylb12, and some ad-b12 -- so am trying to find a low, low dose b-complex that is balanced, and has a little niacinamide and some of the other b's as well.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If you have significant anxiety symptoms driven by NMDA receptor over-stimulation, you need a very high dose of magnesium in order to effectively block your NMDA receptors. Orally, you cannot take more than around 500 mg of magnesium daily, otherwise it gives you diarrhea, and the magnesium is flushed out.

    By contrast, if you apply magnesium to the skin of your whole body, from head to toe, you are going to absorb a much higher dose of magnesium that you can orally. Of course, you can take both oral and transdermal magnesium if you really want to maximize your dosage.

    You are mixing up glutamate and ammonia here. Both these substances can over-stimulate NMDA receptors, sure, but in ME/CFS I think glutamate that is likely causing the problem. Glutamate is produced by activated microglia (ref: here). Ammonia might be the problem in Lyme, as Borrelia bacteria produce ammonia, I understand.

    Quinolinic acid is another very potent activator of NMDA receptors, and might also be involved in ME/CFS. Quinolinic acid is also produced by activated microglia in the brain (ref: here and here). Microglia become activated during brain inflammation.

    Taking high daily doses of transdermal magnesium will help block NMDA receptor activation, but you need to keep taking the magnesium every day to maintain the protective shield against NMDA receptor over-stimulation.

    When I had very severe, hellish constant anxiety symptoms, which I believe were likely caused by NMDA receptor over-stimulation, I applied magnesium to my skin twice daily, from head to toe, and this helped reduce anxiety symptoms.

    Remember, in this context, you are not taking magnesium just to fulfill your body's daily magnesium mineral requirements; rather you are taking magnesium more like a therapeutic drug, for its ability to block NMDA receptor over-stimulation.

    Of course, it would be much better to prevent the excess glutamate and quinolinic acid from being produced in the first place. That way, you would not have any NMDA receptor over-stimulation. However, a belts and braces approach (using both anti-inflammatory supplements and NMDA receptor blockers like high dose transdermal magnesium) is a good idea if you have high levels of brain inflammation and anxiety symptoms.

    I found that the anti-inflammatory supplements I listed at the beginning of this thread were very helpful in reducing my anxiety symptoms, and it is my assumption that some of these anti-inflammatory supplements helped because they reduced brain inflammation, thereby reducing microglia activation, thereby reducing glutamate and quinolinic acid production, thereby reducing NMDA receptor over-stimulation and thereby reducing the anxiety symptoms.

    Please also see the very effective anti-anxiety drugs and supplements listed in this thread:
    Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!


    Quinolinic acid, by the way, is a very interesting and very potent neurotoxin that is involved in lots of neurodegenerative diseases. Quinolinic acid severely impairs energy metabolism (ref: here).

    I find it fascinating that in poliovirus infections, if you block the activity of quinolinic acid, all the damage resulting from poliomyelitis can be prevented (ref: here).
  16. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Is there any way to easily determine whether anxiety symptoms are driven by MNDA receptor over-stimulation?
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The reason I believe my anxiety symptoms involved NMDA receptor over-stimulation is because I found my anxiety was reduced by several drugs and supplements that block the NMDA receptors, including high dose transdermal magnesium, high dose oral taurine (3 grams), and dextromethorphan 30 mg (dextromethorphan is the active ingredient in Robitussin cough mixture).

    If you take any of these (or take all of them together), and your anxiety is noticeably reduced within say 2 hours of taking them, to my mind this suggests your anxiety symptoms may well be caused by NMDA receptor over-stimulation. Note that the anti-anxiety effects of these drugs and supplements kick in around 2 hours after taking them, and last for around 8 to 12 hours.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  18. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Can you get dextromethorphan other than in a cough mixture?
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I just used cough mixture (containing 7.5 mg of dextromethorphan per 5 ml teaspoon), but I read that you can get dextromethorphan in 30 mg tablet form, though I could not find these for sale. Ref: here.

    Dextromethorphan at a dose of 30 mg three times daily has been used as a ME/CFS treatment, and may reduce fatigue, pain, brainfog, depression, IBS, neurological symptoms, sleep, sleep apnea (ref: here).

    If you drink grapefruit juice, it potentiates the effects of dextromethorphan (grapefruit juice inhibits the P450 enzymes in the liver which break down dextromethorphan).

    Very high doses of dextromethorphan (the equivalent of two or three bottles of cough mixture taken in one go) are used by kids as a means to get a psychedelic drug effect.

    Note that you should never mix dextromethorphan with MAOI inhibitor drugs, and some antidepressants.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Raising GABA doesn't seem to do anything for me. I've taken GABA, Taurine, Theanine, Valerian, Neurontin/Gabapentin, and Taurine without any effect. Well, my skin gets itchy if I take too much GABA, but the other ones didn't do anything. What does this mean?

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