1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Nobel scientist discovers scientific basis of homeopathy

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Rosemary, Jul 8, 2010.

  1. filfla4

    filfla4 Senior Member

    Messages:
    215
    Likes:
    138
    Thanks Willow, good luck to you too. Hope you continue to improve. I'm worried that with this newly found energy, I'm going to do too much too quickly. I need to have it tatooed to my brain that I need to pace, pace, pace!! I have two kids (14 and 11) and it's difficult to rest up as much as I need to.
     
  2. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    441
    Raleigh, NC
    Someone asked me to post their success story. I would note that homeopathics played a big role in Mike Dessins recovery.

     
  3. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

    Messages:
    867
    Likes:
    22
    I understand the excitement Montagnier's stunning claim has created among homeopathy circles. However, I think that many people are misinterpreting Montagnier's studies, and that the studies themselves are flawed.

    The article at the start of this thread (on a homeopathy website) is skewed in its reporting of Montagnier's research.

    From that article:
    That is an interpretation of what Montagnier meant, but he never actually said "water has a memory", and if he did he would not be stating it as broadly as homeopaths do. He also made no mention of homeopathy. Even if he is correct it does not prove anything about the efficacy or proposed mechanisms of homeopathy.

    It is premature to say he 'discovered' anything. Nobody has confirmed his claim. It is worth pointing out that the device he used to detect these signals is partly of his own design and one of its patent reviewers attacked the proposed concept of the device (which is basically a coil of wire attached to an amp attached to a PC's soundcard). It has not been demonstrated to have the purported value by other scientists. Also, Montagnier only makes an association between the frequencies he claims to detect and the DNA in question. He does not demonstrate that it actually does, or how it might.

    If Montagnier is to be believed, then segments of the DNA of certain pathogens (HIV and a Mycoplasma species, to name two) generate electromagnetic waves that resonate in the surrounding fluid - such as human plasma - and somehow induce the creation of 'nanostructures' that are much smaller than the pathogens themselves. These nanostructures are a speculative concept to explain his frequency findings and he admits he has no real idea what they really are, apart from a couple of vague sketches of ideas, including one about information-carrying arrangements of dipoles. Anyway, he posits that those pathogens can be 'regenerated' even when they are not present via the re-assembly of their DNA (right down to the smallest genetic detail, and given nucleic acid raw material) based on this nanostructure 'template'. There are gaping holes and speculative leaps in this proposition. But the first thing I would investigate is the experimental apparatus he used. I would check whether his filtration process was flawed (he passed the fluid surrounding infected cells through filters with pores too small for pathogens to pass through, but if ever there was a time to make sure that your filters weren't leaky...). The next thing would be to assess the utility of his detection device, and closer scrutiny to what it is actually detecting. The amount of (in fact, dependence on) background EM radiation in his experiments is disquieting, and he did not even control for that factor. Even if both those tests are passed, there is a long way to go before his various claims and speculations can be verified.
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Likes:
    130
    Melbourne, Australia
    Please refer to my editing (& update of post #21) which gives more detail on my thoughts on Homeopathy & Alternative Therapies (in general). I hope they will be helpful to anyone who may have misunderstood what I was trying to express.
     
  5. wciarci

    wciarci Wenderella

    Messages:
    264
    Likes:
    3
    Connecticut
    Victoria, I think that your posts, comments and replies were very appropriate, enlightening and even kind given the kind of verbal baiting that one poster engaged in. You are as always the articulate, educated lady. I will not even mention the abusive poster who should be ignored for such rudeness. I blame it on the perceived 'veil' of the internet and the obvious frustration that we have all experienced with this dreaded disease. Perhaps the poster was just having a bad CFS day, Please don't take it personally, I and many others appreciate you and your insightful comments.

    Wendy
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Likes:
    130
    Melbourne, Australia
    Thankyou, Wendy,

    I guess we all, at some time or other, use words or sentences which can be misinterpeted due to lack of facial expressions & tone of voice.
     
  7. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,376
    Likes:
    1,954
    Australia
    There is intersting criticism here.

    The article used to be available here. But not anymore.
    Part of publishing in an obscure journal, of which Luc Montagnier is the chairman is that I don't have access through regular university subscriptions and I'm not really willing to fork out my own cash for access to this one. (and the article was published in only 3 days after submission!)

    When I was younger and more gullible (and under the influence of my mother who used to believe in it also), I tried it - for several years. Of course it didn't work, or I wouldn't be posting on this forum.
     
  8. Rosemary

    Rosemary Senior Member

    Messages:
    193
    Likes:
    0
  9. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,376
    Likes:
    1,954
    Australia
    Have you actually looked at the papers cited in the report she was referring to? They are all mentioned in this main article she was referring to here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/homeopathy/ucm1202.pdf

    There were almost zero positive placebo controlled studies with statistically significant results (for a reasonable confidence interval), published in regular medical journals. (Note I just went through the references list and searched for the relevant articles on Google Scholar to determine this, accessed through my university proxy server if necessary)
    Properly conducted double blind studies are important to avoid bias. This is not a double standard by the way, such high quality studies are demanded to prove the efficacy of 'conventional' medicine as well.

    Which was the exception you ask? This interesting article published in the BMJ:
    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/321/7259/471
    Followed up by this:
    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/322/7279/169

    The other interesting study is here, although the statistics are a bit dodgy in they way they combined the results of different studies (although this is not uncommon in medical research) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12634583


    And follow up to the above article here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/5/961
     
  10. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes:
    68
    Tucson
     
  11. hoMEy

    hoMEy

    Messages:
    80
    Likes:
    8
    The Matrix
    MADELEINE Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen's University, Belfast, was the scourge of homeopathy. She railed against its claims that a chemical remedy could be diluted to the point where a sample was unlikely to contain a single molecule of anything but water, and yet still have a healing effect. Until, that is, she set out to prove once and for all that homeopathy was bunkum.
    In her most recent paper, Ennis describes how her team looked at the effects of ultra-dilute solutions of histamine on human white blood cells involved in inflammation. These "basophils" release histamine when the cells are under attack. Once released, the histamine stops them releasing any more. The study, replicated in four different labs, found that homeopathic solutions - so dilute that they probably didn't contain a single histamine molecule - worked just like histamine. Ennis might not be happy with the homeopaths' claims, but she admits that an effect cannot be ruled out.



    "proof" for the efficacy of homeopathy


    randy, will he pay up?

    plenty of proof for and against even using scientific methodolgy. how many pharmaceutical medications have been passed as "safe" only to be found to be lethal. one problem being that it really requires a qualified homeopath to conduct a trial. a trial by someone having no knowledge on the subject, may be a non-starter. anyway, in the uk we have homeopathic clinics on the nhs (dunno how good they are), also it's one of the accepted "big 5" alternative therapies passed by the house of lords as having enough backround and reputation to be officially approved. even my doctor recommended i try it. the times they have changed and moved on thankfully. i believe even "boots" the high st. chemist are or will be selling it. still, there'll be a last stand by the old guard no doubt...

    i wonder if anyone who is interested in homeopathy has looked into or tried "complex homeopathy". my experience is, that it is much more subtley powerful and suited to chronic longterm health conditions. it also seems to have the benefit of getting past individual practitioner skill at diagnosing and treament. it gives multiple remedies and dilutions and the patients body "chooses" those it requires to heal: Dr. Reckeweg and Complex Homeopathy
     
  12. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,308
    Likes:
    5,633
    I quite like the idea of investigations into homeopathy leading to new understandings about physics... but lets not pretend this validates homeopathy!

    The principle of curing like with like is just more superstition too. Maybe all the peculiar beliefs that surround and inform homeopathy will one day be confirmed by careful scientific enquiry - but it seems a bit unlikely. I've got a mischeveous side that would love it were it to happen though.

    (I always feel a bit mean slating homeopathy considering how harmless the actual treatments are, and that I understand how believing in it and feeling you had a doctor who was trying to help you would be a wonderful boon for many CFS patients even if the pills did nothing - but it would be a rather amazing coincidence in a medicine born out of superstition just happened to have found an approach to treatment as astoundingly useful as some claim homeopathy is.)
     
  13. hoMEy

    hoMEy

    Messages:
    80
    Likes:
    8
    The Matrix
    the same kind of scientific enquiry that has approved many pharmaceutical meds as useful and safe only to be found to be killers...u.s.a.'s biggest killer 225,000 deaths per year!!! over 100,000 from correctly administered drugs...i can assure you there's a lot more money, charlatans and unscrupulous behaviour in big pharma, than homeopathy and at least it won't kill ya...

    most scientific theory starts as bunkum and then becomes mainstream, not that, that will happen here, though it seems to be on that path and has been proven by many, even by folk who wished to dis-prove. science can't even make a single blade of grass yet proffesses to know so much. not that science doesn't have a place...

    the electrical acupuncture device i have beautifully encompasses both the western scientific approach and the eastern healing techniques, enabling me to have the equivalent of a highly trained therapist in my own home...so together they are a force to be reckoned with in my opinion...also find it strange when m.e./cfs patients say any help is imagined or placebo...bit like saying m.e./cfs is imaginary to yeah??? it insults your rationality and presumes psychological stupidity, not that i mind. not healthy cynicsm in my opinion though.

    contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, the sun's corona is hotter than the photosphere or chronosphere which are closer to the sun...physics and science cannot, by far, explain everything....
     
  14. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,376
    Likes:
    1,954
    Australia
    Maybe you should learn more about the basis of the placebo concept before making your non sequitur argument.

    It is possible for example for a person who has allergies that cause a regular skin rash to claim that their rashes are somehow less when taking a particular treatment - even if that treatment is a placebo. The point is that there might indeed be improvements - but the attribution to the treatment may be false. I am skeptical of CBT, GET type treatments for the same reason. There cannot be a proper double blind placebo controlled test of these and other therapy based treatments. The benefits may mostly be in the minds of those who filled out the questionnaires and the practitioners. How do I know this? Because the long term status as measured by activity levels, employment status, hours worked does not change for most patients.

    Likewise, I am skeptical of all anecdotes, testimonials etc with regards to the treatment of any medical problem. Too many times have I heard that people were "improving" on a particular treatment or protocol, soon to be completely (or 80%+) healthy, only for that individual to be in the original health situation months down the track.

    Several of my mothers friends have died due to cancer after spending their lives fortune on alternative treatments. In one case, conventional treatments might have been successful if they were attempted.

    It is true that humanities knowledge of science is extremely lacking, compared to the complexity of the world. But that doesn't mean the solution is to abandon science.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page